Blog--Talking Points -- Van Hale Program

Sunday, Jan 28, 2007

These are notes on the various points made on the Van Hale program which I have detected to be in error and my comments and source documents proving his statements are contradictory to the Everlasting Gospel.  Note: there are so many points that it is difficult to catalog them all.

First, to set the stage for my subsequent points, I present this example of the infidelity of Van Hale.  For it was, according to Brigham Young, for infidelity that Amasa M. Lyman was excommunicated.  From another website:

K-TALK LDS Apologist Van Hale Denies
Book of Mormon Historicity

"I'm not persuaded that the Book of Mormon is a translation of an ancient history." - Van Hale September 18, 2005

My Note:  This is in direct contravention to the plain declaration of the Testimony of the Three Witnesses: Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. OLIVER COWDERY DAVID WHITMER MARTIN HARRIS (Book of Mormon)

Van Hale hosts his own Salt Lake area radio program called "Mormon Miscellaneous." On February 6th, 2005 Mr. Hale's guest was Simon Southerton, author of "Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church.

During the two-hour radio broadcast, Van Hale issued a public statement, in which he declared that he could not accept the Book of Mormon is real history about real people.

Van Hale Radio Program February 6th, 2005
Audio: 5.3 MB MP3 file. Please Right Click and SAVE AS.

Transcript of One Discussion During Hale's Broadcast
See Text Transcript

Official Church Statements on Book of Mormon Historicity
See Church Statements Regarding Book of Mormon

Van Hale Public Statements on September 2005

Caller: OK. Well, as far as, as far as everything that happened in the Book of Mormon actually being a true account, like the Lamanites and Nephites and Captain Moroni and the Savior coming to the Americas, you don't exactly believe that those events took place?

Van Hale: I'm not persuaded that the Book of Mormon is a translation of an ancient history.

Caller: And as far as the Savior appearing to the people in America, you just don't believe that actually happened. It was just a written story I guess.

Van Hale: Well, it's... Yes. Uh, the, the situation that I see in the Book of Mormon, if you want to talk in a broad way, yes. The Book of Mormon is a history. There were ancient people, there were people living on the Americas. They came from somewhere. They had religious beliefs. They had wars. They had, they built buildings. They, some of them were quite advanced, surprisingly advanced, as we discover from some of their architecture and so forth and so in a broad sense you could say yes. The Book of Mormon is a history. But when you start talking about detail, I am not persuaded that the detail in the Book of Mormon is detail pertaining to people that anciently lived on the Americas.

Caller: How do you really explain the fact that Joseph Smith obtained gold plates that I guess had an ancient record on them but, I mean, was that just a record that God wrote there and then Joseph Smith just happened to go to the same hill where the angel Moroni or the prophet Moroni, who buried them there in the hill, Joseph Smith just happened to go to that same hill where these plates were found that God supposedly wrote as a story? Or could it actually just, you know, the fact remain that it was an actual true event and this stuff actually took place and, you know, so I don't know, what's your opinion on that?

Van Hale: Well, my point of view regarding the plates is that the plates did exist, that they were delivered to Joseph Smith by an angel and they were shown to witnesses of the Book of Mormon and that gave them something tangible to testify about, that they had seen the plates and handled them but I don't think that Joseph Smith was, that the Book of Mormon relates to anything that was on the plates. It was, I don't know what word to use to, without, without it sounding crude, but uh, the only word I can think of is the idea of a prop.
Text: Full Text Transcript | Audio: 2.5 MB MP3 file. Please Right Click and SAVE AS.

Van Hale Book of Mormon "Not History" Statement
See Text Transcript

 

Continuing with my own observations and statements:

25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men--

(2 Ne  27:25)

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

(2 Ne  28:14,26,31)

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

(2 Ne  28:14,26,31)

Van Hale's "Reckoning" is Grosser Infedility than that Attributed to Amasa Lyman:

Van Hale a self-confessed evolutionist, attributing what he calls "reckoning" to Brigham Young, which is an activity that he himself engages in which brings forth bad fruit, such as twisting the interpretation of "House of God" to "building" of God. To the impure all things are impure, thus Mr. Hale rejoices in and sees the infidelity in  himself, in Brigham Young! Does anyone with an ounce of common sense, much less the spirit of prophecy and revealtion, believe that "House of God" which is to be set in order by the One Mighty and Strong, means "building of God" as Mr. Hale fatuouslly reckons? For example, does the phrase "House of Israel" which occurs over 4000 times in the Bible, mean building of Israel, as we are informed by Mr. Hale?  And when God says he "will gather the strength of his house", we are informed by Van Hale through his reckoning, which is merely infidelity, that this means the strength of his building!  This bad fruit, scripture twisting perversion and is an extreme example of infidelity.  We are warned over and over again in the Scripture against perverting the right way of the Lord.  Specifically wresting the scriptures away from their intended meaning.  And how does one know what the intended meaning is?  By revelation.  And thus whatever the world may think of this principle, without revelation, they can know nothing of God or the devil without revelation, paraphrasing Joseph Smith.  Joseph Smith, when he inquired of Christ which church was right, was told that they were all an abomination because they teach for doctrines the precepts of men, because they have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.  He was told to join none of them.  Van Hale's religion is based on precepts of men which he calls reckoning, which denies the power of God, which is the spirit of revelation to his servants the prophets, such as Brigham Young.  Amasa Lyman was excommunicated according to Brigham Young for infidelity, infidelity regarding the atonement of Jesus Christ.  But I maintain that infidelity and denying the Holy Ghost which is in the prophets is an attempt to crucify the Lord afresh and put him to an open shame, and is really much worse than what Amasa Lyman did.  And thus I say and the Church can do as it pleases, but if they do not obey the voice of the Lord, they will also be cut off from first to last, according to the promise that Moses made that if the people did not hearken to the voice of that prophet like unto Moses, that they would be cut off from among the people.  Mr. Hale is guilty of a much grosser infidelity than Amasa Lyman, and who should also be cast off for apostasy.  For we should avoid the precepts of men strenuously, so that we cannot be accused of sectarian practice of mingling Scripture with opinion, or reckoning as Van Hale calls it.  Thus denying the spirit of revelation, in the prophets ancient and modern so that there are two Isaiahs, the prophets spoke only of their own time, and the above instance of scripture twisting are examples of the precepts of men which the people would hearken unto at the advent of the One Mighty and Strong.  President of churches are not necessarily prophets for the people choose their president, but God chooses prophets and they can be and are at this time saith the Lord two separate individuals, for they are two separate offices, that of anointed of the Lord and President of the Church are separate individuals at this time. For there are further offices in the Priesthood of the Son of God than those contained within the Church. See http://www.artbulla.com/zion/KPIGallery/index.htm

Journal of Wilford Woodruff; May 5, 1867: At St. George meeting on Sunday, part of remarks of Brigham Young: I wish to say a word about Amasa Lyman and tell why he is dropped from the Twelve. It is because of his infidelity. He has no faith in the atonement and another reason is he has lied in his confession. He has preached infidelity for many years to the people, but not to the Presidency and Twelve. Orson Pratt does not believe in a God, only in attributes, but not in a Personage. He would have been cut off from the Church long ago had it not have been for me. The Twelve would have cut him off. Did anyone of you ever hear of any one of the Twelve ever preaching the baby resurrection? I have heard of it. Neither of those brethren will be enabled to do any good.

The advent of the one mighty and strong was prophesied in the book of Mormon and that it would be accompanied by persons who would turn aside this individual is a thing of naught and who would "hearken unto the precepts of men":

 20 And the Lord will surely prepare a way for his people, unto the fulfilling of the words of Moses, which he spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that all those who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.

(1 Ne 22:20)

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

(D&C 103:16)
 

25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men--

(2 Ne  27:25)

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

(2 Ne  28:14,26,31)

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

(2 Ne  28:14,26,31)

29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

(D&C  45:29)

26 And again it shall come to pass, that the Lord shall say unto him that shall read the words that shall be delivered him, Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precepts of men, therefore I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people; yea, a marvelous work and a wonder; for the wisdom of their wise and learned shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent shall be hid.

(JST Isa  29:26)