The Near Death Out of Body Experience

In a debate with an atheist on usenet:

Me:
>>The law of gravity is provable. Darwinism is not.Darwinism is not a science but atheist propaganda.

Him:

>Now he's Mister Science all of a sudden and scientific proof is so important to him. >Wheres your scientific proof for teaching this?: "there is a spirit in plants, >animals, and man, which separates from the corporeal bodies thereof at death, and >this spirit is the spark, or catalyzing energy which effects this organization to >begin with,an d keeps this organism intact while still alive, saith the Lord, and >without the spirit, the elements of the bodies of these "creations" lose their >organization, and hence decay back to their "native element", because the spirit, >saith the Lord, is the energy of activation keeping this high degree of organization >supplied with the energy needed to maintain its organization to begin with and to >remain, intact."

114 And now, thus saith the Lord, all things were created spiritually before they were temporally.
115 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew was created in the spirit, yea even the earth upon which thou standest had its creation before element combined with matter, saith the Lord God, for the foundation of all matter is spiritual, saith the Lord God.
116 And that spirit which is in man which was with me from the beginning which separateth from the temporal body upon the death thereof, goeth to dwell with other spirits who also move and have their beings, and do not die but go to the spirit of the earth upon which thou standest to await the resurrection, for the resurrection cometh to all men and women except them who cannot repent, even sons of perdition.
117 And they await the resurrection of the just or the unjust, according to the deeds done in the body, saith the Lord God of Israel, my chosen.
118 And the spirits of all men and women were arranged in races and grades according to intelligence from before the foundation of the world and according to their performance in that war fought in heaven.

Revelations of Jesus Christ sec. 3

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

(Moses 3:5)


Haven't you ever heard of the near death out of body experience ?

A Scientist who had a near death experience:

Joyce Hawkes, a cell biologist with a PhD, had an accident that forever changed her life — and her view of science. She suffered a concussion from a falling window. "I think that part of me — that my spirit, my soul — left my body and went to another reality," she said. She was surprised at the experience.

"It just was not part of the paradigm in which I lived as a scientist," Hawkes recalled. "it was a big surprise to me to have this sense of something different than the body — a consciousness different than the body — and to be in this wonderfully healing, peaceful, nurturing place."

"I think what I learned was that there truly is no death, that there is a change in state from a physical form to a spirit form, and that there's nothing to fear about that passage," she said.

Some Near Death Questions that scientists need to grapple with:
Numerous people have had Near Death Experiences after their hearts stopped, or they have stopped breathing; and 10 seconds later the EEG (measure of brain electrical activity) - goes absolutely "flat". If so, how can any scientist say that this NDE is a conscious experience? Also, there have been numerous blind people (blind from birth) who reported Near Death Experiences. And for most of these their NDE's are "visual" experiences. How can these be? It is thought that over 10 million Americans have had Near Death Experiences. Why do "scientists" not study these more? These are not drug induced hallucinations. How can so many people report nearly the same details in their experience if they were due to drugs chemically acting on brain cells? Most people who undergo NDE's say that they are not "dream-like" events, but instead, very real and structured "visits". Also, for most people, an NDE is a "life changing" experience.

http://bibleprobe.com/nde.htm

The Big Bang a Big Bust ?

Here is the definition of the Big Bang theory:

"The Big Bang Theory is the dominant scientific theory about the origin of the universe. According to the big bang, the universe was created sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago from a cosmic explosion that hurled matter and in all directions."

It says the "universe was created sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago from a cosmic explosion". So that means there was no universe, no life, just absolutely nothing at least as far back as 20 billion years ago prior to some sort of explosion. The 2nd law of thermodynamics states that matter has always been in existence and more cannot be created. So it is the Big Bangists who contradict science by saying THERE WAS NOTHING and suddenly a cosmic explosion happened that sent matter flying everywhere. Plus, as I have pointed out before recently which not surprisingly no one replied to, there is another huge hole in this theory big enough to push Jupiter through. Big Bangists believe that the universe happened around 13.7 billions years ago. But it's been observed by the Hubble Space Telescope that the universe has an observable radius distance of 46.5 billion light years. But since the universe is 13.7 billions years old, shouldn't the distance be no more than 13.7 billion light years ? No the universe has been measured or to the extent the Hubble Space Telescope allow us to see to be 46.5 billion light years meaning matter must have traveled faster than light which is impossible!

Did the Founding Fathers Oppose Christianity ?

In a debate on a usenet group with an atheist, he said the following:

>The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. >The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this >raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They >are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

>Which are you?

My response:

You take that comment out of context. Thomas Jefferson was a very perspicacious person. He believed in Christ but was against these Christian sects who supposedly spoke for God (priestcraft). He saw through their hypocrisy and inability to answer questions about God such as who He is, why God has ceased to speak, what happens after death, etc. Questions that can only be answered by revelation through the Priesthood.

29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

(2 Nephi 26:29)

16 Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor.

(Alma 1:16)

Because the Priesthood had not been restored yet, many of the questions about God and life had not been answered that the Prophet Joseph Smith brought to light like the true identity of God, the fact that we also have a spirit body existing within out physical bodies, what heaven is like, etc.

"I am like a huge rough stone rolling down from a high mountain; and the only polishing I get is when some corner gets rubbed off by coming in contact with something else, striking with accelerated force against religious bigotry, priestcraft, lawyer-craft, doctor-craft, lying editors, suborned judges and jurors, and the authority of perjured executives, backed by mobs, blasphemers, licentious and corrupt men and womenall hell knocking off a corner here and a corner there. Thus will I become a smooth and polished shaft in the quiver of the Almighty." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 304.)

80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

(Doctrine & Covenants 101:80)

VISION OF THE SIGNERS OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND U.S. PRESIDENTS by the third President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Sainsts Wilford Woodruff in the St. George Temple:

I will say here, before closing, that two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead, gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they: "You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God." These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights. I thought it very singular that notwithstanding so much work had been done, and yet nothing had been done for them. The thought never entered my heart from the fact, I suppose, that heretofore our minds were reaching after our more immediate friends and relatives. I straightway went into the baptismal font and called upon Brother McAllister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men, making one hundred in all, including John Wesley, Columbus, and others; I then baptized him for every President of the United States except three; and when their cause is just, somebody will do the work for them. (1877, J.D. 19:229)
* * *

[138] I am going to bear my testimony to this assembly, if I never do it again in my life, that those men who laid the foundation of this American Government and signed the Declaration of Independence were the best spirits the God of heaven could find on the face of the earth. They were choice spirits, not wicked men. General Washington and all the men that labored for the purpose were inspired of the Lord. Another thing I am going to say here, because I have a right to say it. Every one of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence with General Washington called upon me, as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that l should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the house of God for them. Men are here, I believe, that know of this--Brothers J.D.T. McAllister, David H. Cannon and James C. Bleak. Brother McAllister baptized me for all these men, and I then told these brethren that it was their duty to go into the Temple and labor until they got endowments for all of them. They did it. Would those spirits have called upon me, as an Elder in Israel, to perform that work if they had not been noble spirits before God? They would not. I bear this testimony because it is true. The spirit of God bore record to myself and the brethren while we were laboring in that way. * * * (Rept. of Pres. Wilford Woodruff, Gen. Conf., April 10, 1898, pp. 89-90)

You are a fool and hypocrite.

Did Jesus Exist ?

Many people question whether Jesus Christ really existed or not. I know He did having received a strong testimony by the Holy Spirit.

16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

(Matthew 18:16)

In a court of law, it takes two or three witnesses to establish a testimony. The four Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in a court of law would testify of the existence of Jesus.

The following contemporary historical sources shows evidence of His existence:

" What does old Celsus say, who was a physician in the first century, whose medical works are esteemed very highly at the present time. His works on theology were burned with fire by the Catholics, they were so shocked at what they called their impiety. Celsus was a heathen philosopher; and what does he say upon the subject of Christ and his Apostles, and their belief? He says, "The grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was, because he had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed him." After Jesus went from the stage of action, the Apostles followed the example of their master. For instance, John the beloved disciple, writes in his second Epistle, "Unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth." Again, he says, "Having many thing to write unto you (or communicate), I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full." Again--"The children of thy elect sister greet thee." This ancient philosopher says they were both John's wives." Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, Pg.345 - Pg.346, Jedediah M. Grant, August 7,
1853

Celsus From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Celsus (Greek: ??????) was a 2nd century Greek philosopher and opponent of Christianity. He is known to us mainly through the reputation of his literary work, The True Word (Account, Doctrine or Discourse) (????? 'A?????), almost entirely reproduced in excerpts by Origen in his counter-polemic Contra Celsum of 248, 70 or 80 years after Celsus wrote.

Background

A polemical writer against Christianity whose works often lacked philosophical/logical thought on the topic at hand. Celsus flourished towards the end of the second century. Very little is known about his personal history except that he lived during the reign of Marcus Aurelius, that his literary activity falls between the years 175 and 180, and that he wrote his The True Word against the Christian religion. He is one of several writers named "Celsus" who appeared as opponents of Christianity in the second century; he is probably the Celsus who was known as a friend of Lucian. Some doubt this identification, however, because Origen writes – perhaps blinded by his prejudice against Epicureans – that Lucian's friend was an Epicurean, and the author of The True Word shows himself to follow Plato and perhaps Philo.[1]

It is generally supposed that Celsus was a Greek or Roman. His professed acquaintance, however, with the Jewish religion and his knowledge, such as it was, of Egyptian ideas and customs incline some historians to think he belonged to the Eastern portion of the empire. Those who believe him to have been a Roman explain his knowledge of Jewish and Egyptian matters by assuming that he acquired that knowledge either by travelling, or by mingling with the foreign population of Rome.

Celsus wrote his work The True Word as a polemic against the Christians in approximately 178 CE., or generally between 170 and 180 CE. Celsus divided the work into two sections, the one in which objections are put in the mouth of a Jewish interlocutor and the other in which Celsus speaks as the pagan philosopher that he is. Celsus ridiculed Christians for what he perceived to be an advocacy of blind faith instead of reason. About 60 years after it was first published, the book written by Celsus inspired a massive refutation by Origen in Contra Celsum, which is our source of knowledge for Celsus, who was later condemned along with other critics such as Porphyry.

[edit] Nature of Celsus' attacks

Celsus opens the way for his own attack by restating the arguments leveled at the Christians by the Jews. They are: Jesus was born in adultery and nurtured on the wisdom of Egypt. His assertion of divine dignity is disproved by his poverty and his miserable end. Christians have no standing in the Old Testament prophecies and their talk of a resurrection that was only revealed to some of their own adherents is foolishness. Celsus indeed says that the Jews are almost as ridiculous as the foes they attack; the latter said the savior from Heaven had come, the former still looked for his coming. However, the Jews have the advantage of being an ancient nation with an ancient faith. The idea of an Incarnation of God is absurd; why should the human race think itself so superior to bees, ants and elephants as to be put in this unique relation to its maker? And why should God choose to come to men as a Jew? The Christian idea of a special providence is nonsense, an insult to the deity. Christians are like a council of frogs in a marsh or a synod of worms on a dunghill, croaking and squeaking, "For our sakes was the world created."

Josephus (37 - 100 AD), a Jewish historian wrote in his book "Antiquities of the Jews":

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."

Also in book 20, chapter 9 of Antiquities it said:

"And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king, desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrin without his consent. Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Even Muhammad, the founder of Islam, acknowledged the existence of Jesus:

"ALLAH is HE besides Whom there is none worthy of worship, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. HE has sent down to thee the Book containing the truth and fulfilling that which precedes it; and HE has sent down the Torah (Law of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guidance to the people; and HE has sent down the Discrimination (judgement between right and wrong)." -- Qur'an, Surah 3:3-4

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/quran-jesus.html

The Purpose and Meaning of Life

The Revelations of Jesus Christ

SECTION 3.

THE PURPOSE AND MEANING OF LIFE

REVELATION on life after death. Future state and progression of souls of all men and women delineated. Preexistence of spiritual bodies. War fought in this state among spirits. Rebellious spirits cast out. Memory blotted out concerning events before birth. Separation of spiritual and temporal bodies at death. Existence of devils or sons of perdition, or fallen angels detailed. Resurrection and atonement voted upon by spirits before birth. Plan rejected by fallen angels or spirits, thus denied mortal bodies and cast out to earth. Presence unseen by men, but influence felt. Numbers thereof delineated. Authority of Priesthood after the Order of Melchizedec only authority by which devils are cast out of abodes of faithful spirits [bodies]. Authority of Priesthood of Aaron also delineated.

Thus saith the Lord unto my servants that inasmuch as ye have inquired of me to know the source of truth or that which doth testify of me, saith the Lord,
2 Behold, I will give unto you knowledge concerning these things, inasmuch as ye have asked in all diligence and humility before me.
3 Behold thus saith the Lord, all truth cometh from me, whether pertaining to those things which are of a temporal or as is spoken, a scientific nature, as well as that which is spiritual, or that which pertaineth unto the spirit of man.
4 For upon that death spoken of which is a temporal death, which is the death of the body, behold that which is the spirit of man which is in the express image of the body, doth it die also?
5 I say unto you nay, but it doth continue before me, saith the Lord God, that it lives and moves and has a being.
6 And that which is the spirit of man can never die except it be ordained of me, and thus saith the Lord, the spirits of all men and women stood in my presence from before the foundation of the world, for did I not speak unto my servant Job, in the which I inquired of him, And where wast thou when the morning stars sang together and the sons of God shouted for joy?
7 Yea, where wast thou?
8 And did I not speak unto my servant Jeremiah: Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee and sanctified thee to be a prophet unto the nations.c
9 And the spirits of all men had their agency which I the Lord their God did given unto them in that day, yea, even from before the foundation of the world upon which thou standest.
10 For I did command, and that matter which was in an unorganized state, became organized that these spirits might have whereupon that they would dwell in mortal tabernacles of flesh and bone and sinew, and prove themselves whether they would be obedient in all things whatsoever I the Lord their God should command them.
11 And I the Lord their God did cause that their memory should become blotted out concerning those things which transpired before that they should become agents unto themselves.
12 But behold as I the Lord liveth a perfect knowledge of these things shall be restored unto them in mine own due time, saith the Lord, that they shall know all things pertaining to the past, present, or the future which are true.
13 Then cometh that judgment spoken of and the resurrection of the dead, in the which the small and the great shall be brought to stand at that daya, and if they have worked righteousness, righteousness shall be restored unto them, but if they have done evil in all the days of their probation, evil shall be restored unto them, and this according to that which is just and true, saith the Lord, which is in me.
14 And the resurrection is the reuniting of the spiritual and the temporal bodies, which bringeth a fullness of joy saith the Lord.
15 And for this cause was man created that he might have joy.
16 Therefore he tasteth the bitter that he might prize the sweet.
17 And the resurrection is brought to pass by the atonement which was wrought out in the day that I, the Father, did command that mine Only Begotten who was prepared as a fitting sacrifice from before the foundation of the world, for he also was with me from the beginning, should take upon himself the sins of the world.
18 And a record of these things is had in that scripture known as the Bible, which is had among the Gentiles, even down unto the present time.
19 For I did cause that it should be preserved among them that it should point their minds in the direction of that path which leadeth unto the Eternal Lives spoken of.
20 And other scripture have I caused that it should be written also, for I the Lord God am the same yesterday, today, and forever, and my work, neither my word is yet finished that I should not cause more to be written.
21 For out of the mouths of two or three witnesses shall every word be established, saith the Lord of the whole earth.
22 Wherefore who is it that doth counsel me in their iniquity, saith the Lord, because it is that I the Lord God of Isaiah deign not to speak unto them in my power, they deny that I the Lord God can give utterance as in times of old.
23 For I the Lord God speak and the children of men in their wickedness and depravity deny these things and set up stakes according to their narrow understandings and wrest the scriptures away from their true meanings that they perish, yea even from the earth.
24 For all shall be revelators in the day when I come in clouds of glory to their destruction, for they shall see signs in that day, but not unto their salvation, saith the Lord God of Enoch.
25 For do I not speak face to face with those who be with me in heaven, saith the Lord?
26 Then how is it that I cannot also speak unto them who wander in darkness at noonday, who wander in darkness and despair upon the earth as anciently?
27 For are ye not as precious unto me as they, saith the Lord?
28 Therefore if I the Lord God condescend to send thee an eyewitness as them of old, condemn him not, for if ye receive him whom I send, ye shall receive me also, and this according to mine appointment, which is after the Order of the Ancients, even Melchizedec of old.
29 For I the Lord God am the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
30 And if ye honor him and feed and clothe him, then ye have done it also unto me, saith the Lord.
31 For what king is not insulted if he whom he hath sent with his message is smitten and afflicted and scorned by them unto whom the message was sent?
32 And what king is there doth not send his armies to avenge his honour, saith the Lord?
33 Therefore, O man, in thy ignorance, beware how thou holdest the oracles of God!
34 For thus saith the Lord, many things which were plain and precious unto the understanding of man were removed from that Bible by the hands of wicked men whom I did not move upon in that day which was the foundation of a great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth in the which many of the Gentiles, yea, an exceeding great many do stumble and err upon the points of my doctrine which were plain in that day, saith the Lord.
35 For they imagine up unto themselves a God who it is that doth vary from that which I have said.
36 For did I the Lord God not say, one jot or one tittle shall in nowise pass from the law which I the Lord God did command that my servant as he is known among men, Moses, should write for the benefit of the children of men which is known as the Ten Commandments, which has been the foundation of all righteous government from that day unto this?
37 Yea what meanest thou, O man?
38 Can mercy rob justice?
39 I say unto you nay, but mercy claimeth the penitent only yea those only who truly humble themselves that they may receive forgiveness according to my mercy, yea that they, if they endure to the end, may receive more, yea, even all things, and this according to the atonement wrought out in that day by mine Only Begotten, even Jesus named the Christ.
40 And all who are obedient unto me through mine anointed, even my servant, Art Bulla, in whatsoever I the Lord their God should inflict upon them, having proven them, that upon the resurrection they should return once more into my presence, having gained an experience, saith the Lord, that thereby hell is shaken by them forever, they will dwell with me, the Lord their God, and partake with me of eternal life, and shall dwell with me forever, worlds without end.
41 They shall receive of those things which are beyond the mind of man to comprehend in the greatness and might and glory and intelligence and power thereof, for they speak and matter, doth it not shake and tremble and move at their command?
42 And thus may all work out their own salvation, even in these things, saith the Lord.
43 And unto my servant Art, I the Lord have seen of thy sacrifice and thy tears, and thou, even thou, shallt receive, with me, all that my Father hast.
44 And them who harden their hearts against these things shall perish, saith the Lord, for I the Lord thy God who am mightier than they all, shall not be mocked.
45 For the wicked shall be destroyed by me, saith the Lord, and it shall be completed, even the consumption decreed, even in this generation, shall it come, saith the Lord, that there shall not be left one of them to stand against the wall.1
46 Therefore was he formed by my hand that I the Lord your God should give unto you another gift, for having given the children of men one gift, ye need not suppose that I the Lord your God cannot give unto men another, for he also is in the similitude and very likeness of mine Only Begotten, for he also was with me from the beginning and I have given that he should speak words, yea eternal words for the salvation of the children of men, as a second witness of me.
47 For out of the mouths of two or three witnesses shall every word be established, saith the Lord of the whole earth.
48 And thus may all become my sons, yea, even the Sons of God, by being obedient unto the laws and ordinances which were established for the same also from before the foundation of the world.
49 For there was a vote taken according to the agency which I the Lord God did give unto those who were my sons and daughters who were spirits before the world was, which was according to the pattern of that which had been done upon other worlds which I the Lord God have caused that they also should be organized according to the pattern which had gone on before, and which shall be forever.
50 And behold it came to pass that even as it has been on other worlds, there arose a contention among those who were my offspring.
51 For behold my children are they not spirits, saith the Lord God, even as thy children, O man, and O woman, are they not physical, yet my children, except for mine Only Begotten, are spirits, even thy spirit, O man, was it not begotten by me, even the Father thereof?
52 For the veins of my body, are they not filled with light and power greater than all the earth?
53 And thus it is that flesh and bloodd cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but flesh and bones, quickened by the power of the Priesthood, which is glory unspeakable, can, for I the Lord thy God, am I not a resurrected and glorified man, even as thou art able to become if thou art obedient unto that law which place the Gods on high, even Eloheim, saith the Lord?
54 And this is thy destiny and thy purpose, O weak man in the flesh, and I Jesus of Nazareth desired to teach these things among the Jews, my friends, but they killed me before it was that I was able to explain these things unto them 2.
55 And thus, O man, beset by infirmities, thy destiny if thou art able to bear it, is to become one of the Gods on high, that ye may fulfill and obtain, even the crown, yea, for I love thee, my children below in the flesh, saith the Father, and desire that ye partake with me of my life which is unspeakable in the might and power, honor and glory thereof.
56 And it is , that ye might have a witness among you of these things, that he beheld us in that day that we showed ourselves unto him and spake unto him from out of the heavens and said come up hither, that he may bear witness unto thee, according to power from us, that ye, by receiving him shall receive all things, that he beheld in that day that we showed ourselves unto him and spake with him face to face as Moses.
57 And all religions that are not after this order are false, saith the Lord God of might and terrible burnings.
58 And we will destroy thee, O man, if it be that ye do not worship us in spirit and truth, for are we not able, and shall we be mocked by them in the flesh, saith the Lord?
59 And according to his Apostleship that ye by receiving him shall receive all things, might, power, principalities, heights, depths, yea, they, even they all shall be given unto thee, O man, if ye come unto me through him who was mighty and strong before the foundation of the world.
60 And it is the desire of the devil, who is a spirit, even the prince of darkness and despair and death, that ye, O man and O woman, be kept even from these things, that ye partake with him of darkness and death and despair and hell, for he did rebel against us from before the foundation of the world even in these things, by thinking to abrogate the plan which hath placed the Gods on high.
61 And he drew one third of all the spirits with him out upon the earth upon which thou dwellest even at this time, saith the Lord God of Isaiah.
62 And the man is not without the woman in the Lord, even in everlasting burnings, yea the might and power of my glory, shall she be with him forever, and they too shall have children which are spirits upon other earths which shall be formed by the might, even of their power.
63 And thus is my work and my glory continued, that I the greatest of all shall be glorified by my children, that I may deliver up my kingdom unto my Father and his Father who art with me.
64 And are we not one unto thee O man?
65 For thou shallt be one of us if thou art obedient unto us through him whom we have sent and authorized by the power of the Priesthood, yea that power which is unspeakable by which seas have been split and armies put at bay, that he may teach by the revelations of Jesus Christ, of the one true way, even from us.
66 And it is necessary that each man have more than one woman, that they bear the souls of men that the works of my Father be continued.
67 And this is the law which placed even the Gods on high, and is this not a most holy principle, saith the Lord?b
68 For this was the law that Abraham and Sarah obeyed and covenanted with me that the seed should become as numerous as the sands upon the seashore for the numbers thereof or the stars at night.
69 And Abraham, doth he not even now continue these works, for was he not resurrected at the resurrection of mine Only Begotten Son, even Jesus of Nazareth, and is he not a God in the might and glory of my power, saith the Lord?
70 And it is my will that mine anointed receive unto himself them which shall be given unto him that he also partake with us of these things which are beyond the mind of man to comprehend, even forever and ever, worlds without end shall they continue and multiply, even as the stars at night, saith the Lords, and these, are they not the works of Abraham, saith the Lord?
71 And all who receive not these things which are written, saith the Lord, shall be destroyed by us body and soul in hell, for we will preserve our freedom even in these things, by marvelous power to the complete destruction of man upon the earth, who is our enemy, except he should repent and become like unto us, for have we not the power, saith the Lord God?
72 Even so, judge ye and see, saith the Lord, for thy generation is the one that shall be destroyed by us and we rejoice in it, for they that come, shall they not burn thee, O man?
73 And there is nothing that can stop even one of my little ones, who be warriors, full of vengeance and the fury of the Lord of Hosts in that day which shall burn as an oven, and all the wicked, shall they not be destroyed by us, saith the Lord, and this even if all perish, as by fire? 3
74 And as I said, there arose a contention among those who were mine offspring, for I the Lord God am the Father of thy spirit, O man, who dwelleth below in the flesh, for thou hast also been with me, even my children whom I love, saith the Father, from the beginning.
75 And there arose one who was in authority who was my son also, who also was also a son of the morning, in that he was placed in authority, being one of my firstborn, and he aspired for that which was not right, and he would ascend above the throne of my power, and would that he should take upon himself the glory.
76 Therefore it was caused that he and one third of all my sons who were spirits, who were with me from the beginning should be cast out.
77 For they, even they, according to the agency which I the Lord God did give unto them, staged rebellion in their wickedness, and thus they were forbidden that they should come in possession of mortal tabernacles or bodies, upon the earth upon which thou and thy fellows dwell.
78 And thus they make war upon the Saints and encompass them round about and they intend that the plan which was right before me, saith the Father, should be abrogated, yea even that plan which was voted upon by the remaining two thirds who were not cast out.
79 And this is the cause of all thy misery and wo upon the earth, for the war hath it not been transferred to the earth?
80 And all must take sides, for there is no middle ground, saith the Lord, even between good and evil and all, are they not enlisted, either on one side or the other, saith the Lord?
81 And a man's enemies shall be them of his own household because of the word, for I am not come to bring peace, but a sword, and father shall be against son, and mother against daughter, even in these things, saith the Lord.
82 And those who are overcome by the devil and his angels even in the rejection, even of these things, shall they not suffer with him in that lake of fire, for he hath no power, saith the Lord, except to tempt thee that ye may be proven, and this only for a season, saith the Lord?
83 And he knoweth these things, therefore he is angry and desperate, for his time is short upon the earth, and therefore he doubleth his efforts against thee, O man and O woman, and wo unto the disobedient, for they shall not escape!
84 Yea, even those sons of perdition, shall they not suffer the second death with the devil and his angels, saith the Lord?
85 And the height and the depth of their misery no man knoweth, neither is is it revealed except unto them who are made partakers thereof.
86 And this cometh upon all in this generation, saith the Lord, who endure not to the end, and receive my gospel, for have they not denied the Holy Ghost, even in these things, saith the Lord?
87 And thus, for thy sins and thy rebellion against me, O man, ye shall die, even a second time, if ye deny the Holy Ghost, which sin is unpardonable4.
88 And the devil hath form as thee, O man, though ye cannot see him with thy physical senses, yet he interacts with thy physical body to cause pain and death.
89 For power is given him for a space to tempt thee, O man, that ye might be tried, to see if ye are able to discern between that which hath a lasting value, or that which hath no eternal substance, which is transient, being of no worth, saith the Lord God.
90 And I have decreed that all men should be agents unto themselves, therefore it is given unto them that they should know good from evil, that they may choose, whether to be enticed by that evil one, or that they should be enticed by my Spirit, saith the Lord, to do good both unto; themselves by being obedient unto the laws and ordinances of my gospel, and unto others by teaching them of these things.
91 For true science and true religion, are they not the same things, O man?
92 For I the Lord God am the author of all truth, which cometh from me.
93 And there is not one among the children of men, nay, not one, that doeth good at all, save that he shall work according to the gift and power of God for the salvation of the children of men from the grasp of the devil and his angels which exceed in number over twenty-thousand millions.
94 For the warfare which began before the world was, hath it not been even transferred to the earth that ye be deceived if thou art not honest with thyself, O man, and with thy fellow man, and this as to the plan of salvation voted upon by you in that day, before the world was made, saith the Lord?
95 And this, O man, is the cause of thy pain and thy discomfort which doth afflict thee night and day, which pain is small in comparison with that which the who deny my power will suffer in eternity if they will not repent and come unto me, yea, even the Father of heaven and earth, and be obedient unto me through him whom I have appointed, and that true gospel which I have caused that it once more should be preached among you in that simplicity and plainness of God, in which it is impossible to err.
96 And any other which cometh unto you with any other gospel is verily not of me, saith the Father.
97 For the evil one is the father of lies and is angry and desperate, and desireth thy destruction that ye may partake with him of his misery.
98 And by the false doctrines taught in the churches and synagogues by the pious among men, he hath deceived the whole world, for their gospel hath not power as them of old, even Peter, James and John and Art Bulla, for thy salvation O man, and the whole world lieth and groaneth in sin and death and eternal destruction which hangeth over thee, O man.
99 For I will not be mocked, yea, even in these things hath he deceived thee and with false science, even evolution, O man.
100 And these are the first principles and ordinances of my gospel which plan was instituted by them who were spirits in the council of the Gods, which had been done upon other worlds, and voted upon by the majority: faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that One Mighty and Strong, also, for he also is my witness, saith the Father.
52
101 Repentance, which is forsaking thy false teachers, baptism for a remission of sins by immersion by mine authority which is after the Order of Aaron, which authority my son John, otherwise known as the Baptist held, and the laying on of the hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost which is my Spirit, by mine authority, which is without beginning of days nor end of years, which is after the Order of Melchizedec, which is after the Order of Enoch, which is after the Order of the Son of God, which authority was held by mine Apostles, Peter, James and John, and the keys of which are held at this time, by my servant Art Bulla.
102 And by obedience to these ordinances and revelations the children of men do the will of the Father and enter into the kingdom of God on the earth.
103 Thus and only thus are men born again, and any other doctrine which is taught even though he be an angel of light or one of the ministers of thy day, even as Billy Graham, or an Apollos, or a Spencer Kimball, or the pope is false, for the devil transformeth himself and his ministers into angels of light, though his ministers know it not, they are not guiltless before me.
104 For if they were honest they would admit they have not received from me one single thing, but speak according to their tradition or according to their opinion, saith the Lord which is not authority.
105 And thereby the devil thinketh to abrogate the plan of salvation voted upon from before the foundation of the world, and only a true prophet, seer, and Revelator of the sons of Jacob have intelligence and might and power to detect through the medium of the Priesthood and rebuke the devil in his machinations and deceivings.
106 And the devil teacheth that these prophets are deluded and are the basest of men.
107 Thus the Prophets of the Holy One of Israel are they not cast out from thy habitations, O man and O woman, that ye crucify them in thy ignorance, before me, saith the Lord God of Israel?
108 For these Prophets were mighty from before the foundation of the world in true science and intelligence, for is the glory of God not intelligence, saith the Lord?
109 And the classes of astronomy and music and mathematics, were they not taught from before the foundation of the world, for the spirits were arranged in classes and grades and teachers, were they not appointed over them, even my sons Mosiah and Levi Hancock, were they not overseers appointed by the Gods, even the council thereof.
110 And was not Jesus of Nazareth and that One Mighty and Strong, were they not the greatest of the sons of God, even in serenity and light and knowledge and intelligence from before the foundation of the world?
111 And that One Mighty and Strong, he also stood with the Father who presided in might over them all and laughed and approved of us in our endeavors and our friendships and our loves.
112 And Moses and Aaron, and Elijah, Jesus, Melchizedec, Brigham Young, Joseph the Seer, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, were they not with us, O man, in the councils of the heavens, and there wast no disharmony, nor jarrings, but each was obedient unto our Father in that day.
113 Even so, should it be here, but for the devil whom each hath wrestled in the day appointed unto him, that each should come forth and do battle in the name of the Father and his Sons, and the Holy Ghost, that having proved themselves, they might take their places with the sons of God on high, even Eloheim.
114 And now, thus saith the Lord, all things were created spiritually before they were temporally.
115 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew was created in the spirit, yea even the earth upon which thou standest had its creation before element combined with matter, saith the Lord God, for the foundation of all matter is spiritual, saith the Lord God.
116 And that spirit which is in man which was with me from the beginning which separateth from the temporal body upon the death thereof, goeth to dwell with other spirits who also move and have their beings, and do not die but go to the spirit of the earth upon which thou standest to await the resurrection, for the resurrection cometh to all men and women except them who cannot repent, even sons of perdition.
117 And they await the resurrection of the just or the unjust, according to the deeds done in the body, saith the Lord God of Israel, my chosen.
118 And the spirits of all men and women were arranged in races and grades according to intelligence from before the foundation of the world and according to their performance in that war fought in heaven.
119 Yea there was a race of men cursed to be a servant of servants 5 from before the foundation of the world, for lack of valiance and bravery in that war in heaven, and this is the curse of Cain the first murderer and this curse wast it not preserved through that which is known as the flood through Ham?
120 And the greatest in the kingdom of heaven must be the least and the servant of all, saith the Lord, hence the ordinance of the washing of the feet hath also been done on other worlds, that the greatest might be in all and above all and through all, the light of truth, saith the Lord God.

121 And these spirits that await the resurrection, if they have been obedient unto mine ordinances which are administered after the Order of Melchizedec, and come out of Babylon which is fallen, and partake of the United Order, they shall have Eternal Life which is the greatest of the gifts of the Gods saith the Lord of Hosts.
122 For Endless is my name and Eternal is my name also, for they shall be my sons and my daughters and dwell with me forever worlds without end and partake with me of such glory, might and intelligence and power that the heart of man is unable to conceive of the greatness thereof, saith the Lord.
123 And he who esteemeth these things which I have caused to be written as a thing of naught shall be cast into that hell which is a lake of fire and brimstone from which there is no deliverance, saith the Lord, for I shall not be mocked.
124 And now as I said concerning the earth upon which thou standest, behold thus saith the Lord, it fulfilleth the measure of its creation, and I have made it to answer the ends of the law, for have I not caused it to be baptized by immersion thereof that it too might become cleansed from all sin, in that day which I did speak from out of the heavens unto my servant Noah?
125 And thus saith the Lord it too shall be baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost in the day not too far distant in the which it shall be cleansed from iniquity.
126 And this thou must do also, O man, if thou art to receive of thine inheritance upon the earth, for it is that thou must keep the Law of the Celestial Kingdom as the earth upon which thou standest, saith the Lord God of Israel.
127 For this is the law and hast it not been done also on other worlds too numerous to count, and have the wicked not also perished from off of them also, saith the Lord?
128 Thus they who are saved from each earth, do they not associate and rejoice together for they who were few, now are many, yea too numerous to be counted by man in his finite understanding?
129 And they are Gods, for they descended below all things while in the flesh, and have proven themselves worthy of my glory, saith the Lord God of Art Bulla.
130 And the earth becometh a body celestial, for it too shall die.
131 Nevertheless it shall be resurrected to receive of its fullness and that according my law, saith the Lord, in the which it shall become a sea of glass and fire, even an Urim and a Thummim 6 upon which they who are bodies celestial shall inhabit it forever and ever, and they shall have access to kingdoms which are of a higher order yet, as well as those which are of a lower.
132 For did I not cause it to be written by the hand of my servant Paul that there are bodies also terrestrial7and also telestial for did not my servant Paul behold these things in the which I the Lord God did remove him from his body that he was also able to behold the workmanship of mine hands, saith the Lord God?
133 For their boundaries are set, for where I am they cannot come worlds without end.
134 For they received not my law when I did call unto them from out of the heavens, and they denied NOT the Holy Ghost, as ye of this generation have done if it be that ye reject these things, saith the Lord, for they were not of thy generation who are saved, saith the Lord, for the earth at that time was not filled with the anti-Christ.
135 And it is for thy sloth, O common man and woman that ye have allowed these things to come among you that ye shall also suffer the second death, if ye repent not, for ye, even ye have allowed yourselves to become corrupted by these anti-Christs even Meade and Freud and Jung and Korihor which they did not do.
136 And them who are saved cannot be enlarged, but must remain in their saved state, separate and single, as they are for eternity to eternity, and is this not damnation?
137 Nevertheless they are in their saved state, though they be not as the sun in the glory and might which proceedeth from their bodies by which glory they are quickened upon the resurrection, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of my Heavenly Father, but flesh and bones quickened by spirit, which is light, can, but are some of the moon and some of the stars.
138 And the vision of the telestial and the inhabitants thereof were as numerous as the sands upon the seashore, or as the stars of the sky at night.
139 And the vision of the telestial is that as one star differeth from another in the glory thereof, even so is the resurrection of the telestial.
140 And the man is forever segregated from the woman and the woman from the man in the telestial.
141 For they abused their association, therefore they have not power from me, the Lord their God to associate forever.
142 And if a man or woman will not agree to these conditions, then it is that they, even they shall not be resurrected, but shall suffer the second death with the devil and his angels, for mine anger is it not kindled against the inhabitants of the whole earth in their iniquity before me, saith the Lord?
143 And thus is there weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.
144 And in the terrestrial, the man and woman associate, for these are the honorable men and women of the earth who were blinded by the cunning craftiness of men who lie in wait to deceive, although there is no union which is called sexual, but this only in the Celestial Kingdom, saith the Lord.
145 And there are laws which govern the telestial as also the terrestrial and the celestial, for in my Father's house there are many mansions.
146 And there is one glory of the sun and another glory of the moon, and another of the stars.
147 For all these are bodies, yea, even in the resurrection, and do they not differ in eternal glory which proceedeth from their bodies, even as there are different races of men in the flesh, O man, and thus do the races of men differ, for the House of Israel is it not the most intelligent, saith the Lord?
148 For they are even as the sun in the glory thereof, even Shem who is Melchizedec and his descendants, and the gentiles, even Japeth, one of the other sons of Noah, from whom the Gentile nations are descended, are they not as the moon in the glory thereof, and the negro, the African tribes or nations, who are descended from Ham, the third of the sons of Noah, are they not as the stars in intelligence and glory?
149 And thus the races of men are more markedly delineated forever and ever in the resurrection, for the bodies in the resurrection which are Celestial are as the sun in brilliance.
150 And all things flee from their glory unless quickened by them.
151 And the glory of the telestial is beyond imagination.
152 And thus my judgment from before the foundation of the world is wrought out upon the inhabitants of the earth, and all exclaim, thy judgments are just, O Lord, and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, and that Art Bulla is that One Mighty and Strong, for all power on earth and in heaven hath been given him also, saith the Father.
153 For he is my second witness, for out of the mouths of two witnesses shall every word be established, and they shall see and know at that day when it is that they bow the knee.
154 And the children of men shall not be resurrected unless it is by his permission, saith the Lord.
155 And he shall rule over these kingdoms forever and ever for they are his dominions which I the Father have given into his hands and they shall be his servants.
156 And the rest of the spirits of men, they go away to reign with the devil and his angels and are devoured by him forever, for they, were they meet for a kingdom of glory?
157 And thus the meek shall inherit the earth, for the meek they, even they are resurrected to possess it, and the devil hath no power, and thus they who be with him possess nothing.
158 For they have no bodies, and this is his punishment, saith the Lord, for death is his end and they are cast into outer darkness along with many of this generation, saith the Lord, if they repent not and believe that I have sent another unto them even as them of old.
159 And there are missionaries even now in the world of spirits preparing the sons of men for the resurrection.
160 For these have not denied the Holy Ghost which attitude if fashionable among this generation, saith the Lord.
161 And the height and depth of the suffering of them who deny the Holy Ghost no man knoweth save he shall be made a partaker thereof, for it doth require millennia for the spirit to die and be ground back down to its native element from which it was begotten, and this by the devil and his angels who are mighty to the destruction of men, and they are without hope having crucified mine Only Begotten unto themselves afresh.
162 And this fate cometh upon all of this generation who receive not my gospel, whether it be Billy Graham, or the Pope, saith the Lord, for they were given much, and where much is given much also is required, even obedience to mine anointed and diligence in keeping his commandments which I the Lord shall give him.
163 And the rest of the vision of the resurrection of the dead is contained within that volume of scripture which I the Lord God did grant unto the people of that generation through the mouth of my servant Joseph Smith, who is even now with me, saith the Lord, in the might of my power as a witness against that generation who killed him in that day, that the foundation of Zion should even be laid.
164 Therefore cease ye from man whose breath is in his nostrils, saith the Lord.
165 And as respecting that theory concerning the origin of man upon the earth in the which he is said to have sprung from orders that are called lower, behold, it is false and cometh from that Evil One who goeth up and down in the earth blinding the hearts of the children of men, in the which they raise their heads in wickedness before me, and deny the Holy Ghost and the Creator that made them.
166 Thus they become devils forever and ever, saith the Lord, and suffer the wrath of the Lord in eternity and are cast into that lake of fire, and their worm dieth not but they are consumed.
167 And the common man and woman is not guiltless before me in these things, saith the Lord, for in their sloth they have allowed themselves to be deceived, even in these things and by false religions.
168 And now concerning the earth upon which thou standest, the revolutions thereof are fixed, yea as also the stars and the planets; all move in their times and their seasons appointed unto them, for I am the Lord thy God and by my power have I created them.
169 And all these are kingdoms and must abide the law unto which they were appointed, yea as even the earth upon which thou standest, and as there are laws which govern the planets there are also laws unto which I have appointed to govern the spirits or souls of men and all who abide my law shall have glory added upon their heads forever and ever;
170 For it is by my law, that all who are governed thereby are preserved and sanctified, for without law, there can be no order, and without order all things must remain in confusion and a state of chaos, which thing is displeasing unto me, saith the Lord.
171 Yet all intelligence if free to act within the boundaries of the sphere appointed unto it, saith the Lord of all creation, that all may fill the measure of their creation, that all may have joy therein.
172 And it is my desire that that order which existed among all things in the spirit, saith the Lord, yea even before the world was created should be done temporally according to my will and commandments which I dispense unto the children of men through the medium of mine appointment which is after the Order of Melchizedec, saith the Lord God of Israel.
173 And thus is the foundation of all righteous government which cometh from me, saith the Lord.
174 And it is now my will, saith the Lord God of Israel, that all other governments among men which are not of me, but are after the Order of that Evil One or of man should become done away among you, that I may organize you according to the intelligence of mine anointed, who is mine administrator, saith the Lord, according to that pattern which was established before the world was;
175 That the pain and suffering and lack of fulfillment which doth exist to such a marked degree even now among you be done away, and that I the Lord thy God should take up my abode upon the earth which thou standest;
176 That thereby the earth may fulfill the measure of its creation, for unto this end was it appointed that it might become the dwelling place of the sons and daughters of God.
177 And the wicked and disobedient will I destroy, saith the Lord, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch in that day which not far distant which shall burn as an oven, as I spake through the mouth of my servant Malachi.
178 Even so. Amen.

1. Matt 24:34.

2. John 10:34-36.

3. Malachi 4:1; J.S.2:37.

4. Matt 12:31-32.

5. Genesis 9:25.

6. These are two Hebrew words meaning lights and perfections, mentioned in the Book of Ezra and Nehemiah, in connection with the Priestly office.

7. I Corinthians 15:40-41.

b D&C 132:30-33.

d I Corinthians 15:50.

c Jeremiah 1:5.

a Rev 20:12

First Vision

FIRST VISION

While journeying on foot about 10:00 P.M. in the east, being inducted into the armed forces the next day, being on the way to the bus station to travel to the armed forces induction station in Raleigh, N.C, I received the following vision, while on the road on foot:

December 29, 1969, while enwrapted in a heavenly vision, It seemed that I, Art Bulla, was removed out of my body, or whether in the body or out of it I could not tell, and I beheld his face, and He spake unto me face to face as one man speaks unto another for forty-five minutes or an hour, and whether in the body or out of it, I could not tell, for I beheld his glory, which surpasses all understanding, and spake while in the vision, in a much better tongue than any spoken by man at this time, which I supposed to be the Adamic Tongue, my understanding being quickened by such might and intelligence and power that it is beyond the mind of man unaided by the Spirit of Revelation which dwells yet within me, to comprehend, and indeed no words can convey, for it seemed that I was transfigured before Him of whom I speak, my God in whom I bear record as others have before me, that He lives, for I too have seen Him. And tongue cannot express his matchless might, glory, power and intelligence, and I shall forever adore his glory, for having once beheld his face and felt of his love and might and power and beheld things which I cannot convey, for there is no language, I must, I MUST obtain his presence, and I shall not be content with anything else, this world or its allurements. And having been ordained unto the Holy Order of God which is after the Order of Melchizedec, even the Holy Apostleship, the keys of which I hold, I bear record of my Father, for I have seen Him and conversed with him, and I testify that He shall return in this the Latter Day as soon as my people are straightened from this crooked and perverse generation which shall be destroyed by the might of his power, and that they be gathered out according to the Revelations which are being given unto me, almost daily at this time, which is one of the darkest periods and most wicked because of unbelief in the history of the earth, that Zion may descend and that the heavens and the earth mingle and become One, as prayed by the Only Begotten, even my brother Jesus of Nazereth. Yea, my Father, I pray that thy will be done and thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. Even so. Amen.

Debate on Mormon Newsgroup Concerning Ken Ham

Art Bulla View profile More options Apr 30 2005, 11:52 pm
Newsgroups: alt.religion.mormon
From: "Art Bulla"
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:52:27 -0700
Local: Sat, Apr 30 2005 11:52 pm
Subject: Re: For Art Bulla, Disciple of Ken Ham
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I disagree with Ken Hom on dinosaurs. You see I know that Adam and Eve were transplanted from another planet, here into a garden and the former creation was made desolate. This Ken Ham does not believe. But I receive all truth no matter from where it comes and I discard error, for I have taken the Holy Ghost for my guide.

--
Concerning quotes (out of context): these are distortions, taken out of the context of the blasphemies and insults placed upon me by the vilest of traitors and foul wretches imagineable. Jesus kicked their asses out of the Temple and I do the same to all god damned liars and hypocrites. I make no apology. God is my judge. If this fellow (Manning) were honest he would include these, and all would see that I am justified by the Lord in my responses. The word of the Lord is given on the matter in the following:

Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him. Let no one, therefore, set on my servant for I will justify him. saith the Lord your God.

Manning is as mendacious about not being a queer as Ward Churchill is about being an Indian. Typical of the delusional left. Not moored in truth or reality.

THE GOLDEN RULE OF DISINFORMERS: Always accuse your adversary of whatever is true about yourself.

"Nothing has more retarded the advancement of learning than the disposition of vulgar minds to ridicule and vilify what they do not understand." Dr.Samuel Johnson.

The Revelations of Jesus Christ:

Discourses of Brigham Young, Pg.68 As it has always been, and will be yet for some time, when the sons of God assemble together Satan will be on hand as an accuser of the brethren, to find fault with those who are trying to do good.

"But we ask, does it remain for a people who never had faith enough to call down one scrap of revelation from heaven, and for all they have now are indebted to the faith of another people...does it remain for them to say how much God has spoken and how much He has not spoken?" Joseph Smith

"Every generation has flattered itself that it is a little better than the one that preceded it. Every generation has prided itself in its knowledge and great advancement in the arts and sciences and its superiority over preceding generations; yet the power of the adversary and his hatred of righteousness and truth are as great to-day as they ever were since the creation of the earth." Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, Pg.228 - Pg.229, George Q. Cannon, May 6, 1866

"Some men are natural born saints; whenever a principle is advanced they understand it, and drink it in; * * * while there are others who do not understand and oppose every principle that is not clear to their mind. This can be accounted for, that we are not all pure blooded, for Ephraim became foolish and mixed up with the gentiles. When we find the pure blood of Ephraim, we find a natural born child of God and there is nothing in the gospel that is objectionable to them, but the others have to exercise faith in God and humble themselves before Him and live for it." (Deseret Weekly,
50:250-251)

35 And the rebellious shall be cut off out of the land of Zion, and shall be sent away, and shall not inherit the land. 36 For, verily I say that the rebellious are not of the blood of Ephraim, wherefore they shall be plucked out.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 64:35 - 36)


Kevin Z View profile More options May 1 2005, 9:11 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.mormon
From: Kevin Z
Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 10:11:14 -0600
Local: Sun, May 1 2005 9:11 am
Subject: Re: For Art Bulla, Disciple of Ken Ham
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RetroProphet wrote: "Dinosaurs and the Bible" by Ken Ham A critique by Michael Suttkus http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/dinos_and_bible_suttkus.htm

Wow, I can't imagine why anyone would go so far to prove a seven day creation concept. To throw science out the widow, completely, is absurd.

If you use a simple concept..... Seven periods of time. Everything works out, and science does not conflict with Religion

Dinosaurs were a part of building up the earth for us to live on. What or why is speculation, when they weren't necessary anymore, they were removed.

I prefer to look at it as controlled, or guided evolution.


Art Bulla View profile More options May 1 2005, 9:32 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.mormon
From: "Art Bulla"
Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 09:32:58 -0700
Local: Sun, May 1 2005 9:32 am
Subject: Re: For Art Bulla, Disciple of Ken Ham
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I do not take Ken Ham's theological position on the creation, you know it. His theology replacing evolution is in some degree incorrect. Adam and Eve did not evolve, controlled or otherwise and you have brought a curse upon yourself because of this gentile idiocy. Adam and Eve were brought here from another earth, having been resurrected off that earth by the Eloheim (the Gods). Evolution is completely wrong. In this Ken Ham and I agree. So I use scholarly treatises published from that web site to conveniently discourage the evolutionary religionists from their false religion. Brigham Young and Joseph Smith taught the correct science. Evolutionism in any form is blasphemy, saith the Lord, and produces this point of view among the Mormons that eternal truths change according to circumstances. In other words if Jimmuh Carter and the IRS threaten to persecute the money changers in the Mormon Church, then they conveniently abandon inviolable truth to "get along" with the gentiles.

--
Concerning quotes (out of context): these are distortions, taken out of the context of the blasphemies and insults placed upon me by the vilest of traitors and foul wretches imagineable. Jesus kicked their asses out of the Temple and I do the same to all god damned liars and hypocrites. I make no apology. God is my judge. If this fellow (Manning) were honest he would include these, and all would see that I am justified by the Lord in my responses. The word of the Lord is given on the matter in the following:

Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him. Let no one, therefore, set on my servant for I will justify him. saith the Lord your God.

Manning is as mendacious about not being a queer as Ward Churchill is about being an Indian. Typical of the delusional left. Not moored in truth or reality.

THE GOLDEN RULE OF DISINFORMERS: Always accuse your adversary of whatever is true about yourself.

"Nothing has more retarded the advancement of learning than the disposition of vulgar minds to ridicule and vilify what they do not understand." Dr.Samuel Johnson.

The Revelations of Jesus Christ:

Discourses of Brigham Young, Pg.68 As it has always been, and will be yet for some time, when the sons of God assemble together Satan will be on hand as an accuser of the brethren, to find fault with those who are trying to do good.

"But we ask, does it remain for a people who never had faith enough to call down one scrap of revelation from heaven, and for all they have now are indebted to the faith of another people...does it remain for them to say how much God has spoken and how much He has not spoken?" Joseph Smith

"Every generation has flattered itself that it is a little better than the one that preceded it. Every generation has prided itself in its knowledge and great advancement in the arts and sciences and its superiority over preceding generations; yet the power of the adversary and his hatred of righteousness and truth are as great to-day as they ever were since the creation of the earth." Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, Pg.228 - Pg.229, George Q. Cannon, May 6, 1866

"Some men are natural born saints; whenever a principle is advanced they understand it, and drink it in; * * * while there are others who do not understand and oppose every principle that is not clear to their mind. This can be accounted for, that we are not all pure blooded, for Ephraim became foolish and mixed up with the gentiles. When we find the pure blood of Ephraim, we find a natural born child of God and there is nothing in the gospel that is objectionable to them, but the others have to exercise faith in God and humble themselves before Him and live for it." (Deseret Weekly,
50:250-251)

35 And the rebellious shall be cut off out of the land of Zion, and shall be sent away, and shall not inherit the land. 36 For, verily I say that the rebellious are not of the blood of Ephraim, wherefore they shall be plucked out.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 64:35 - 36)

"Kevin Z" wrote in message

news:P-2dnWVWlITGY-nfRVn-pg@comcast.com...

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
RetroProphet wrote:

"Dinosaurs and the Bible" by Ken Ham A critique by Michael Suttkus http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/dinos_and_bible_suttkus.htm

Wow, I can't imagine why anyone would go so far to prove a seven day creation concept. To throw science out the widow, completely, is absurd.

If you use a simple concept..... Seven periods of time. Everything works out, and science does not conflict with Religion

Dinosaurs were a part of building up the earth for us to live on. What or why is speculation, when they weren't necessary anymore, they were removed.

I prefer to look at it as controlled, or guided evolution.


Unruly Human View profile More options May 2 2005, 12:10 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.mormon
From: Unruly Human
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 01:10:13 -0600
Local: Mon, May 2 2005 12:10 am
Subject: Re: For Art Bulla, Disciple of Ken Ham
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Art Bulla wrote: I disagree with Ken Hom on dinosaurs. You see I know that Adam and Eve were transplanted from another planet, here into a garden and the former creation was made desolate. This Ken Ham does not believe. But I receive all truth no matter from where it comes and I discard error, for I have taken the Holy Ghost for my guide.

LOL

--
D1 Don Marchant Think Global, Act Loco
------------------------------------------------------------

Jong Kim View profile More options May 2 2005, 6:15 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.mormon
From: "Jong Kim"
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 06:15:45 -0700
Local: Mon, May 2 2005 6:15 am
Subject: Re: For Art Bulla, Disciple of Ken Ham
Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author "Kevin Z" wrote in message

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RetroProphet wrote:

"Dinosaurs and the Bible" by Ken Ham A critique by Michael Suttkus http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/dinos_and_bible_suttkus.htm

Wow, I can't imagine why anyone would go so far to prove a seven day creation concept. To throw science out the widow, completely, is absurd.

If you use a simple concept..... Seven periods of time. Everything works out, and science does not conflict with Religion

Dinosaurs were a part of building up the earth for us to live on. What or why is speculation, when they weren't necessary anymore, they were removed.

I prefer to look at it as controlled, or guided evolution.

An amazing admission from Kevin Zoellner, that he's an Evolutionist. He was a closet Evolutionist after all! In a way, he and John Manning have much in common. Art Bulla is once again proven right, that the wicked professing Christ also believe in Evolution, not in God.

"Adam came into the garden with a celestial body, which had been resurrected from an older earth. He and Eve, one of his wives, along with plants and animals were brought here by his Father and his Jehovah and planted in a garden eastward in Eden after the former creation had been made desolate, saith the Lord, by a mighty convulsion, hence the fossils in the ground, but we are not descended from them." Received by Art Bulla the One Mighty and Strong.

--
The Revelations of Jesus Christ: http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=0-595-28287-3

http://www.artbulla.com

Jong Kim


Art Bulla View profile More options May 2 2005, 12:51 pm
Newsgroups: alt.religion.mormon
From: "Art Bulla"
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 12:51:27 -0700
Local: Mon, May 2 2005 12:51 pm
Subject: Re: For Art Bulla, Disciple of Ken Ham
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"It is the disposition of vulgar minds to ridicule and vilify what they do not understand." Dr.Samuel Johnson.

--
Concerning quotes (out of context): these are distortions, taken out of the context of the blasphemies and insults placed upon me by the vilest of traitors and foul wretches imagineable. Jesus kicked their asses out of the Temple and I do the same to all god damned liars and hypocrites. I make no apology. God is my judge. If this fellow (Manning) were honest he would include these, and all would see that I am justified by the Lord in my responses. The word of the Lord is given on the matter in the following:

Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him. Let no one, therefore, set on my servant for I will justify him. saith the Lord your God.

Manning is as mendacious about not being a queer as Ward Churchill is about being an Indian. Typical of the delusional left. Not moored in truth or reality.

THE GOLDEN RULE OF DISINFORMERS: Always accuse your adversary of whatever is true about yourself.

"Nothing has more retarded the advancement of learning than the The Revelations of Jesus Christ:

Discourses of Brigham Young, Pg.68 As it has always been, and will be yet for some time, when the sons of God assemble together Satan will be on hand as an accuser of the brethren, to find fault with those who are trying to do good.

"But we ask, does it remain for a people who never had faith enough to call down one scrap of revelation from heaven, and for all they have now are indebted to the faith of another people...does it remain for them to say how much God has spoken and how much He has not spoken?" Joseph Smith

"Every generation has flattered itself that it is a little better than the one that preceded it. Every generation has prided itself in its knowledge and great advancement in the arts and sciences and its superiority over preceding generations; yet the power of the adversary and his hatred of righteousness and truth are as great to-day as they ever were since the creation of the earth." Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, Pg.228 - Pg.229, George Q. Cannon, May 6, 1866

"Some men are natural born saints; whenever a principle is advanced they understand it, and drink it in; * * * while there are others who do not understand and oppose every principle that is not clear to their mind. This can be accounted for, that we are not all pure blooded, for Ephraim became foolish and mixed up with the gentiles. When we find the pure blood of Ephraim, we find a natural born child of God and there is nothing in the gospel that is objectionable to them, but the others have to exercise faith in God and humble themselves before Him and live for it." (Deseret Weekly,
50:250-251)

35 And the rebellious shall be cut off out of the land of Zion, and shall be sent away, and shall not inherit the land. 36 For, verily I say that the rebellious are not of the blood of Ephraim, wherefore they shall be plucked out.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 64:35 - 36)

"Unruly Human" wrote in message

news:YLadnQYaCK3ET-jfRVn-og@comcast.com...


I disagree with Ken Hom on dinosaurs. You see I know that Adam and Eve were transplanted from another planet, here into a garden and the former creation was made desolate. This Ken Ham does not believe. But I receive all truth no matter from where it comes and I discard error, for I have taken the Holy Ghost for my guide.


--
D1 Don Marchant Think Global, Act Loco
------------------------------------------------------------

End of messages

On the Plurality of Gods

On alt.religion.christianity, someone posted that there is only one God in response to a post that I wrote that there are are numerous Gods. I replied:

There are many Gods but there is only but one God to each earth. I know this to be true having the Holy Spirit as a testimony of the veracity of it.

6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

(Ps 82:6-7)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the
scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

(John 10:34-36)

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

(1 Cor 8:5-6)

32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I
unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

(Moses 1:32-35)

Some say I do not interpret the Scripture the same as they do. They say it means the heathen's gods. Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many; and that makes a plurality of Gods, in spite of the whims of all men. Without a revelation, I am not going to give them the knowledge of the God of heaven. You know and I testify that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods. I have it from God, and get over it if you can. I have a witness of the Holy Ghost, and a testimony that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods in the text. I will show from the Hebrew Bible that I am correct, and the first word shows a plurality of Gods; and I want the apostates and learned men to come here and prove to the contrary, if they can. An unlearned boy must give you a little Hebrew. Berosheit baurau Eloheim ait aushamayeen vehau auraits, rendered by King James' translators, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." I want to analyze the word Berosheit. Rosh, the head; Sheit, a grammatical termination; the Baith was not originally put there when the inspired man wrote it, but it has been since added by an old Jew. Baurau signifies to bring forth; Eloheim is from the word Eloi, God, in the singular number; and by adding the word heim, it renders it Gods. It read first, "In the beginning the head of the Gods brought forth the Gods," or, as others have translated it, "The head of the Gods called the Gods together." I want to show a little learning as well as other fools.
* * *
The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth. Now the learned priests and the people rage, and the heathen imagine a vain thing. If we pursue the Hebrew text further, it reads, "The head one of the Gods said, Let us make a man in our own image." I once asked a learned Jew, "If the Hebrew language compels us to render all words ending in heim in the plural, why not render the first Eloheim plural?" He replied, "That is the rule with few exceptions; but in this case it would ruin the Bible." He acknowledged I was right. I came here to investigate these things precisely as I believe them. Hear and judge for yourselves; and if you go away satisfied, well and good. In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through-Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take [that] view of the subject, its sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods. All I want is to get the simple, naked truth, and the whole truth. Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow-three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. "Father, I pray not for the world, but I pray for them which thou hast given me." "Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we are." All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God-he would be a giant or a monster. I want to read the text to you myself-"I am agreed with the Father and the Father is agreed with me, and we are agreed as one." The Greek shows that it should be agreed. "Father, I pray for them which Thou hast given me out of the world, and not for those alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be agreed, as Thou, Father, are with me, and I with Thee, that they also may be agreed with us," and all come to dwell in unity, and in all the glory and everlasting burnings of the Gods; and then we shall see as we are seen, and be as our God and He as His Father. I want to reason a little on this subject. I learned it by translating the papyrus which is now in my house.

(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith, p.371-372)

Who Created God ?

On alt.atheism, someone posted:
> FWIW in at least one sense, God _IS_ life. If we ask who created life, then
> we must ask who created God.

Verse 6 plainly shows that our God has a Father too.

5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

(Rev 1:5-6)

I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the God of heaven. "In order to do that," said he, "suppose we have two facts: that supposes another fact may exist-two men on the earth, one wiser than the other, would logically show that another who is wiser than the wisest may exist. Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them."
If Abraham reasoned thus-If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.
I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. He did as He was sent, to lay down His life and take it up again; and then was committed unto Him the keys. I know it is good reasoning.

(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith, p.373)

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,-I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form-like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.
In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.
These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith, p.345)

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power-to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious-in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do we believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.
Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me.

(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith, p.346)

Adam was an immortal being when he came to this earth. He had lived on an earth similar to ours. He had received the priesthood and the keys thereof, and had been faithful in all things, and had gained his resurrection, and his exaltation and was crowned with glory, immortality and eternal lives, and was numbered with the Gods, for such he became through his faithfulness.
(Brigham Young quoted in the Journal of L. John Nuttall, Feb 7, 1887)

"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the Garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken. HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the Only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians and non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later . . . When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten of the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven . . . Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the Garden of Ede, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation."
(Brigham Young from Journal of Discourses, 1:50-51 1854)

Eliza R. Snow: "When Brigham Young proclaimed to the nations that Adam was our Father and God, and Eve, his partner, the Mother of a world--both in a mortal and a Celestial sense--he made the most important revelation ever oracled to the race since the days of Adam, himself." Women of Mormendom; p.196-7.

The Ultimatum of Human Life

Eliza R. Snow

Adam, your God, like you on earth, has been

Subject to sorrow in a world of sin:

Through long gradation He arose to be

Clothed with the Godhead's might and majesty.

And What to him in his probative sphere,

Whether a Bishop, Deacon, Priest or Seer?

Whate'er his offices and callings were,

He magnified them with assiduous care:

By his obedience he obtained the place

Of God and Father of this human race.

Obedience will the same bright garland weave,

As it has done for your great Mother, Eve,

For all her daughters on the Earth, who will

All my requirements sacredly fulfill.

And what to Eve, though in her mortal life,

She'd been the first, the tenth, or fiftieth wife?

Whether by fools, considered small, or great?

'Twas all the same with her--she'd prove her worth--

She's now the Goddess and Queen of Earth.

Book of Mormon Prophesized in the Bible

A bigot anti-Mormon who are a dime a dozen said on alt.religion.christianity:

>Art Bulla and the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and Savior of mankind are not one in the same, Aaron. You may hold Bulla in high esteem, but I assure you, he's no Messiah (much less a prophet). No Aaron, as the Scripture says, "My sheep know My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me" (John 10:27). As one of Jesus' sheep, I assure you, I would NOT "have wanted to straitjacket Jesus".

"If Jesus spoke as rough things to this generation as he did the Jews, this generation would crucify him all over again." Joseph Smith

Messiah is an office in the Priesthood. It means "Lords' Anointed". Jesus is the Only Begotten, an office too. By its name, obviously you know there is only one who is the Only Begotten. There are two main tribes of Israel, Judah and Ephraim. Ephraim was invaded by Assyria and taken captive and scattered through Europe, losing their national identity permanently. Through the Lord's invisible guiding hand, the remnants of Ephraim were re-gathered on North America and formed the United States. Judah rejected their Messiah will Ephraim reject theirs ?

1 NOW the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he [was] the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him [came] the chief ruler; but the birthright [was] Joseph's:)

(1 Chronicles 5:1-2)

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

(Ezek 37:16-17)

5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;

(D&C 27:5)

The Book of Mormon
As recorded in the Book of Mormon, Lehi was warned that Jerusalem would be destroyed, and he was advised to take his family and leave. As he listened to the voice of the Lord and followed his instructions, he and his family were led out of the city to safety and into the new world, later to be known as America, while they who remained were destroyed or taken into captivity.
While the prophets in the old land were receiving revelations from God, the people of Lehi on this, the American continent, were not left without guidance. Prophets were raised up through whom God spoke and directed his people in all their doings as they would listen. He revealed to them also, 600 years before Christ's coming, that he would come, that he was the Savior of the world, that he would be persecuted and crucified, and that he would be resurrected.
This was foretold clearly by Lehi, Nephi, Alma, and others, including Samuel, to whom it had been revealed the exact time that Jesus Christ would be born. They were told of the signs which would be shown on this, the American continent, at the time of Christ's birth and crucifixion. Every word which had been revealed to them regarding these events was fulfilled. Following his crucifixion Christ appeared personally to the people on this, the American continent, and taught them the truths of the gospel.
Many of the revelations recorded in the Old and New Testaments, as well as in the Book of Mormon, refer most clearly to these, the latter days. Some of these are not generally understood by the world and can only be understood through revelations which were received in these the latter days, by the Prophet Joseph Smith. One example of these is that of John the Revelator who, when looking into the future, said:
Another Angel
"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
"Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." (Rev. 14:6-7.)
This revelation was fulfilled and clearly understood when the Angel Moroni did fly in the midst of heaven and appeared to Joseph Smith and told him of the plates which contained the gospel in its fullness. Joseph said that as the Angel Moroni appeared to him, he called him by name and told him that ". . . there was a book deposited written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fullness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants." (Joseph Smith 2:34.)
The Gospel Restored
Thus we know that the angel, as predicted or prophesied by John the Revelator has flown, that this great and glorious gospel has been restored in its fullness by the Lord through the Prophet Joseph Smith to be preached to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people.
Another revelation recorded in the Old Testament which refers to these, the latter days, and has reference to the Book of Mormon, is that received by Ezekiel wherein he says:
"The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
"Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
"And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand." (Ezek. 37:15-17.)
As I read this, I went to the Interpreter's Bible, which is written in twelve volumes, and is a commentary on all of the Old and New Testaments. This commentary was prepared by thirty-six consulting editors with over one hundred recognized, capable contributors and deals with all quotations from the Bible, taking them verse by verse and explaining their meaning and application. When I came to Ezekiel 37th chapter, verses 15 through 17, which I have just read, no feasible explanation was given, but conjectures only were made. This is no reflection on the editors or contributors to this great commentary, as they knew of no way to get the meaning.
Here again, by direct revelation and by direct revelation only, do we understand clearly what Ezekiel meant. Here the stick of Judah as referred to is the Bible, and the stick of Ephraim, which is written for Joseph and all the house of Israel his companions, is the Book of Mormon. Through the power of God and by direct revelation, this Book of Mormon, which contains the gospel in its fullness, was translated, and it with the Bible, became "one in thine hand." How clear and simple the words of Ezekiel become if we will but listen to the prophet's voice!

(President Nathan Eldon Tanner, Conference Report, April 1964, Second DayMorning Meeting, p.61-63)

Jesus said to the Jews:

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

(John 10:16)

After Jesus' resurrection, aside from visiting His Jewish Apostles, He visited the Nephites and Lamanites on the Americas:

14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.
15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.
16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:
17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.
19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.
20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.
21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.
23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice--that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.

(3 Ne 15:14-24)

3 And because my words shall hiss forth--many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.
6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.
13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.
14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

(2 Ne 29:3-14)

Response to an Atheist Anti-Mormon Who Accuses Brigham Young of Fabricating Ban on Giving Blacks the Priesthood

"Let this Church which is called the Kingdom of God on the earth. We will summons the First Presidency, the Twelve, the High Council, the Bishopric, and all the Elders of Israel, suppose we summons them to appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings that God has given to us. on that very day and hour we should do so, the Priesthood is taken from THIS CHURCH AND KINGDOM and god leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain, the Church must go to destruction we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the Priesthood until that curse be removed."

(Brigham Young Addresses, Ms D, 1234, Box 48, Folder 3, dated Feb. 5, 1852, located in the LDS Historical Dept. SLC, UT.)

Retroprophet wrote on alt.religion.mormon:

> Banning blacks from the Priesthood was not a policy of
> the Church from its very beginning.
>
> In addition to the well-documented case of Elder Elijah Able,
> letters written by Wilford Woodruff and even Brigham Young,
> before Young instituted the ban around 1849, refer to black Elders
> -- what more evidence that you are wrong do you need?

You sir are a liar as we have proven over and over before.

The Prophet Joseph Smith was commanded by God to withdraw the priesthood from Elijah Able [sic], and revoke the ordination. There is no exception. The continued church's policy over the years is an evident fact that Presidents Young, Taylor, Woodruff and Snow, as well as Heber C. Kimball, William Clayton, and other leaders of the time, all knew of this excluding doctrine and continued to abide by it. Although there is no official Church record as to the revocation, Elijah Able affirmed the fact to father, Thomas A. Shreeve, when both were living in the Salt Lake 10th Ward, during 1872-1877. At the time, Bro. Able told young Thomas, who baptized Able's grandchildren, that the Prophet Joseph "came to him with tears in his eyes one day, and told him [Abel] that he had been commanded by the Lord to withdraw the holy priesthood from him."
Patriarch Shreeve testified many times before his death in 1931 of the facts in the case, and of his close [106] relationship with Brother Able. As of this date there are still living three members of the Shreeve family, who know of the facts to which their father testified Elijah Able told him. (Caleb A. Shreeve, Sr., The Salt Lake Tribune, "Forum," 26 Oct. 1970)

In 1879 Zebedee Coltrin related to a small group of Priesthood leaders that Brother Joseph had told him in 1834 that "the Spirit of the Lord saith the Negro has no right nor cannot hold the Priesthood."
(Nuttall Journal 1:293)

You may say Joseph was a devil, if you like, but he is at home and still holds the keys of the kingdom, which were committed to him by heavenly messengers, and always will. Do you ask who brother Brigham is? He is an humble instrument in the hands of God, to keep His people in the path he has marked out through the instrumentality of his servant Joseph and to travel in which is all I ask of them." (Brigham Young; Contributor 10:2)

It would be oompletely out of character for Brigham Young to invent a doctrine that wasn't taught by Joseph Smith. He was zealous in keeping the commandments of the Lord given through Joseph.

An Email to My Mom

Dear Mom,

I received the voicemail that you left last night. I appreciate your love towards me and I love you. Like I said when I spoke with you yesterday afternoon, I will call you every other week. You can also contact me by email too.I just feel all that we could say to each other was said in yesterday's phone call. I think we will be just going in circles. I know that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith , Brigham Young, Art Bulla are true servants of God. I know I am on the right road in my life and I would hope that you will repent and be baptized. I wish you will respect my life as I have decided to live.

Jesus said:

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
(Matthew 10:37-38)

"The integrity of the early Latter-day Saints, in remaining true to the gospel when a crucial test came, has always strengthened my faith; and I wonder if the boys fully appreciate the integrity of our parents. I desire to call the attention of our young people to a few incidents that have come under my observation, and the reasons why these people remained true.

"There was a young man living in one of the villages of Sweden who had grown to manhood and was a respected member of his father's family, and an honored member among the young people of the village. He had received a liberal education, and finally secured a lucrative position in a near-by city. He had not been located long in the city until he was a recognized leader among the young people of the place. As he was walking down the street one evening, he was attracted into a building where some "Mormon" elders were preaching the gospel. He was so impressed with the truth of what he had listened to that he invited one of the elders to his room, investigated further, and finally accepted the truth, was baptized, had the hands of the elders laid upon him, and received the Holy Ghost. When he received this witness for himself, he was so over-joyed that he could not rest until he had persuaded one of the elders to go with him to his father's home, and to take the glad tidings to those he loved best on earth.

"One cold, stormy day, the new convert and the elder started for the home of this young man who was delighted at the thought that his dear parents were going to receive the truth. He told the elder that he had one of the most honorable fathers, a kind and loving mother, brothers and sisters that he loved, and what a welcome they would receive when they arrived; there would be a warm fire to dry their wet clothes, and a choice supper would be cooked by mother; and he told how glad all would be to receive them; and, best of all, they would receive the gospel.

"Finally they arrived, cold, wet and hungry, but this was soon forgotten in the hearty reception they received. After the first greetings were over, they gathered around the warm fire, and the delighted mother was soon busy in the kitchen preparing the evening meal, and savory odors soon permeated the room. The young man was so over-joyed at the prospect of his parents receiving the gospel that he could not wait for supper to be served, or for them to get their wet clothes dried; but, being filled with that happiness that a knowledge of the gospel brings, told his father that his companion was a "Mormon" elder, and that he himself had accepted the gospel, and had brought the elder to bring the glad tidings to those he loved best on earth. But what a change those simple words produced! The father arose from his chair, called his wife and family around him, and said, "There is the boy we have doted on; the one we have looked upon to bring honor to his father's household; and, instead, he has brought shame and disgrace upon us." Then walking to the door, he opened it; and, pointing to the storm outside, he said: "My son, we all love you; we have looked forward with pleasure to the honor you would add to our name; but choose ye between the love of father, mother, brothers and sisters, the fireside of your youth and your honorable name, and this detestable religion, the storm and the night, and the casting of you out from our hearts and our homes!

"The young man looked for sympathy, but the same cold stare met him from each one present, and he was stunned and chilled to his heart. Then came upon him the many happy scenes of his youth, the love of father, mother, and all the tender ties of home; but, with tears in his eyes, and a lump in his throat, he buttoned his coat, put on his hat, and walked out into the night, an outcast from all that he loved best on earth.

"Why did the young man make this kind of a choice? Was he not human? Did he not love father, mother, brothers and sisters, and home? Why did he not say to that elder; "I was mistaken; there must be something wrong with a religion that will cause a person's loved ones to forsake him, and I prefer the love and honor of my home." But he did not do that, and the reason he did not, was because of that testimony that burned into his very being, and compelled him to admit that the gospel was true, and he could not deny it.

"His employer, learning that he had joined the Church, discharged him. His friends and companions no longer recognized him as they met him on the street. Why was this? Changes were taking place with other people. Many joined the Catholic, Presbyterian, and other religions, and their friends did not forsake them. Why should his forsake him, because he joined the "Mormons?" and, at this stage, why did he not turn back? He remembered the saying of the Savior: "He that will not forsake father and mother," etc., and the testimony remained with him, and he remained true to the faith."

(Improvement Era 1902)

Sincerely,

Aaron Kim

A Reply to a Typical Cultural Apostate Mormon Woody Brison on Alt. Religion.Mormon

"Woody Brison" wrote in message news:1192297141.895511.197510@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

On Oct 12, 12:43 am, "Aaron Kim" wrote (I had a lively discussion with two Mormon Elders:)

"My Conversation with Two Mormon Elders"

In Escondido, CA on Oct. 1st, Monday, around 11:40 am, I was riding my bike on my way to the post office when I saw two Mormon elders walking to a neighborhood. They were Elders Parker and Orr. We exchanged greetings...

-(Woody Brison:)This is a thrilling story. This is the point in life, that every person will come to sooner or later, that is the turning point in their life. If they listen to the LDS missionaries, they can get on the fast track thru mortality to eternal life. Most people never even see the missionaries or hear of the Gospel even. In this decade the missionaries are starting to reach everywhere almost, and lots of people see them... but most do not notice them. You have noticed them and are talking with them... you've crossed that threshold. It might be an occasion for a party!

But the LDS has departed from the correct way of the Lord just like the original Church of Christ so I might delay the party.

... and I started out by saying that I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and that I knew Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God. They seemed enthused. ...

-This is great. A truly great start. You are on the track, well along even.

... I continued by saying that however I am not part of the Church ...

-Which can be remedied, but the good part is that you do recognize this fact. With all your tanglings with Art Bulla we'd be cautious, you thinking maybe you are the Church and WE are on the outside of it.

Jesus held the Priesthood outside of the Jewish Church.

''An assumption frequently made is that the authors of the prophetic books of the Old Testament were the constituted authorities of the Church in their eras. This, however, was not always the case. Some of them were even considered rebels by the religious leaders of Israel in their days. Jeremiah was one such prophet who stood outside of the Church. The established Church, through its Priests, even attempted to put Jeremiah to death. Micah, Amos, Hosea, and Zephaniah were also prophets who were critical of corruption within the Church.

"These Old Testament prophets did not speak as representing the Church, but as representing the Lord. Though the prophets may have held the higher Priesthood authority, there is no Biblical indication that the general Church membership of that time was aware of it." Thus Saith the Lord; Duane S. Crowther, p. 148.

... and that I believed the current Church had departed the teachings of the original Church. ...

-And here we have your first problem. What you profess here is not true; the Church has continued faithful and is the same organization that Joseph Smith started. Naturally the Lord has made some changes over the years. That's what it's all about - He's actively guiding the Church.

No the Church has changed altered many important items of doctrines including polygamy, getting rid of the Seventies which have equal authority to the Twelve, stopping the gathering of Israel, and giving blacks the Priesthood.

"We are told that the living oracles take precedence over all other authority, living or dead. We agree that the living oracles take precedence, provided they do not conflict with the dead oracles. If it is true that the living oracles take precedence over all others regardless of their disagreements with the dead prophets, then the Saints must necessarily change their faith every time there is a change in the presidency to conform to the views of the new president. The mention of such an attitude is so absurd as to border upon the ridiculous." (Gospel Problems, Heber Bennion, p. 6)

20 To the law and to the testimony; and if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

(2 Ne 18:20)

9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

(Morm 9:9)

"There is no clash in the principles revealed in the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants; and there would be no clash between any of the doctrines taught by Joseph the Prophet and by the brethren now, if all would live in a way to be governed by the Spirit of the Lord. All do not live so as to have the Spirit of the Lord with them all the time, and the result is that some get out of the way."

(Preston Nibley, Brigham Young: The Man and His Work, 4th ed., p.310)

"That the Church's stand on morality may be understood, we declare firmly and unalterably, it is not an outworn garment, faded, old-fashioned, and threadbare. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and his covenants and doctrines are immutable; and when the sun grows cold and the stars no longer shine, the law of chastity will still be basic in Gods world and in the Lords church. Old values are upheld by the Church not because they are old, but rather because through the ages they have proved right. It will always be the rule."

(President Spencer W. Kimball, President Kimball Speaks Out on Morality, Ensign (CR), November 1980, p.94)

I find then President Spencer W. Kimball's sermon pretty amusing considering when about two and a half years ago in June 1978, he made the decision to reverse the ban of giving blacks the Priesthood, a policy of the Church from its very beginning.

And I will here say, as I wish to be understood by all men, that our faith is, there never has been but one Gospel upon the earth, though to-day there are six hundred three score and six different religious faiths, all more or less diverse one from another; but there is but the one true and everlasting Gospel, and never will be any more, and it is the same Gospel that was taught to Adam, to Noah, to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the Patriarchs, and which Jesus and the Apostles preached; it never did vary in the least in one single instance, nor never will. And I say, if we teach any other Gospel than that which was taught by Jesus and His Apostles, we teach a false Gospel and shall be under condemnation before God, angels and men.

(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 23:, p.127)

Evidence indicates that ordinances of salvation were available to the children of God from Adam to Moses. Joseph Smith declared "that [Adam] received revelations, commandments, and ordinances at the beginning is beyond the power of controversy."7 Those prophets who succeeded Adam knew the same gospel and ordinances. "How could Abel offer a sacrifice and look forward with faith on the Son of God for a remission of his sins, and not understand the Gospel?," the Prophet Joseph asked. "If Abel was taught of the coming of the Son of God, was he not taught also of His ordinances? We all admit that the Gospel has ordinances, and if so, had it not always ordinances, and were not its ordinances always the same?"8

(Sperry Symposium Voices of Old Testament Prophets: The 26th Annual Sidney B. Sperry Symposium , p.175)

... I explained that the Church no longer receives "Thus saith the Lord" revelations.

-A revelation from God does not have to contain the words "Thus saith the Lord". This phrase just means "this is what the Lord says." It means that the Lord speaks to the Prophet, and then the Prophet speaks to the people and tells them what the Lord said to him. If he leaves that phrase out, it give us no license to ignore the message.

-A prophet can get revelation in other ways. For instance, he might be taken up onto a high mountain and view the future. There might be nothing said vocally at all in this vision. Yet the Prophet could see the future, etc. and he could come back down and say "this is what's going to happen." He might not say "thus saith the Lord", if the Lord didn't speak to him during the vision, or didn't give him a message that he was specifically supposed to relay to the people.

-Or the Prophet could sense what the Lord wants done. Does the Lord have to spell it out? If He does, it suggests that the people and the prophet are not very close to Him. After they have been following His Gospel for a couple hundred years maybe they will get sufficiently close to Him that He doesn't have to spell out things, He can just think of what He wants and the people know. A revelation doesn't have to say "thus saith the Lord" to be a revelation. Ever heard the expression "your wish is my command"? If we know what the Lord is wishing, why would we not want to jump to do it for him? Why would we need Him to go thru a certain formula?

-The Church has been on the earth again now for 177 years. At first the Lord gave many revelations where he spelled things out in great detail, instructions on how to proceed. In some of them he didn't say "thus saith the Lord." With those written down and published and understood, He doesn't need to keep repeating the same instructions. So yes, you will see fewer and fewer revelations in the form of verbal messages given to the Prophet to be passed on to us, with or without the phrase "thus saith the Lord" in them on a day-to-day basis. If the Church is still on track, that's what we should expect.

I wonder if your "Prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley meets the criteria of a true prophet as described below.

The One True God" by Ogden Kraut

Chapter 10

JOSEPH SMITH: THE LONELY VOICE OF A PROPHET

From out of the masses of humanity, occasionally there arises someone who can speak for God. He is not a typical "money minister" nor a self-appointed imitator--but is a genuine prophet of God. His voice is seldom heard, and even less frequently believed, but his message is vital.

In these latter days, when there are so many counterfeit messengers of God, there must be at least one original. The counterfeits may be similar to each other, but the original will be a little different from the rest. The obvious difference is that all the counterfeits say they are right and Joseph Smith is wrong. But it would be foolish to believe that God would send a true prophet to tell us that the teachings of all these different Christian churches were right. It would be equally ridiculous to think that a true prophet would say that all the different churches had a correct concept of the identity of the real God.

A genuine prophet, of necessity, would come to testify of the error of their teachings and concept of God. Furthermore, a true prophet would clarify many of the mysteries unknown to the rest of the existing creeds and cults. And this is what Joseph Smith did!

But before accepting words of a man who claims to be a prophet, there must be some evidence or proof that he is a true prophet. A few of these guidelines are as follows and will be discussed briefly in this chapter:

[131] He must--

1. be called of God.
2. be in harmony with scripture.
3. receive revelation from God.
4. enjoy gifts of the Spirit.
5. receive the visitation of angels.
6. be assigned to a special work.
7. teach the doctrine of gathering.
8. prophesy and have his prophecies fulfilled.
9. be supported by other witnesses.
10. advise others to inquire of God.
11. be willing to die for the truth.

None of the "counterfeit Christians" have exemplified all these credentials--but Joseph Smith did.

1. He must be called of God.

A prophet must speak for God. He does not guess, suppose, or presume that he has been so called. He will have a definite time, place, and experience that indicates the reality of his call from God.

The Lord calls prophets personally, for He said, "Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream." (Num. 12:6)

False ministers and self-appointed prophets merely assume their call--either by vanity, desire, or dark revelation. Such prophets and teachers are those who "speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord" (Jer. 23:16). There have always been more imposters than genuine prophets, and they are described as the "foolish prophets that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing" (Ezek. 13:3).

The messages given to true prophets usually consist of new information--not a repetition of traditions already accepted. They reveal the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 13:11).

[132] As a teenage boy, Joseph wanted to know which church was right. Being honest enough and having great faith, he went to the woods to pray. While praying, he later recorded:

. . . I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun .... I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other--This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! (Pearl of Great Price, J.S. 2:16 & 17)

This kind of call from God separates the prophets from other Christian evangelists.

2. He must be in harmony with scripture.

The teachings of a prophet will not contradict former prophets nor scripture. Since God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, His teachings and doctrines are the same. There is only one gospel.

There is no evidence that salvation was one thing in the days of Adam, another in the days of Moses, another in the days of Jesus, and still another in the 20th century. Joseph Smith added:

I hope you will search the Scriptures to see whether these things are not also consistent with those things which the ancient Prophets and Apostles have written. (TPJS, p. 29)

One prophet may reveal new information, new truths and prophecies, but their doctrines will not clash or disagree with those revealed by former prophets. Thus, the teachings of one prophet will harmonize with those of all the other prophets. This was certainly the case with the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

[133] 3. He must receive revelation from God.

One of the most important duties of a prophet is to have communication with God. Even the humble servants who believe should receive such revelation. False priests and ministers are best known to be frauds by the simple fact that they deny revelation from God, nor do they believe they can receive it.

Revelation can come to people in many different forms, one of the most common being a written message through a true prophet, in which "Thus saith the Lord" is attached. This stamp of origin is one of the methods to detect a genuine divine revelation.

With over 100 revelations published and as many more not printed, Joseph Smith is one of the most prolific revelators in history. At the beginning of the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord revealed:

I the Lord knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven and gave him commandments. (D. & C. 1:17)

This is written revelation; it is scripture, and it bears the stamp of God upon it.

4. He must enjoy gifts of the Spirit.

A true prophet enjoys many gifts of the Spirit to help him accomplish his mission. Visions, dreams, speaking in tongues, healing, etc., are part of the heritage and blessings given to prophets.

According to Joseph Smith, a prophet should be in possession of all the gifts and be familiar with their discernment. He must understand the source of those gifts, or deception and chaos will follow.

[134]
Because faith is wanting, the fruits are. No man since the world was had faith without having something along with it. * * * A man who has none of the gifts has no faith; and he deceives himself, if he supposes he has. Faith has been wanting, not only among the heathen, but in professed Christendom also, so that tongues, healings, prophecy, and prophets and apostles, and all the gifts and blessings have been wanting. (TPJS, p. 270)

The existence of gifts of the Spirit is an evidence that God is pleased with those particular people or that their faith is acceptable to Him. How else would true prophets and disciples know that God is with them?

One example of the Prophet Joseph enjoying the gifts of he Spirit is included below:

Many of my brethren who received the ordinance with me saw glorious visions also. Angels ministered unto them as well as to myself, and the power of the Highest rested upon us, the house was filled with the glory of God, and we shouted Hosanna to God and the Lamb. My scribe also received his anointing with us, and saw, in vision, the armies of heaven protecting the Saints in their return to Zion, and many things which I saw. (D.H.C. 2:381)

The most popular creeds of Christianity today claim no vision or revelation from God. However, such visions are as necessary for the spiritual path to salvation as the vision of the eyes is to the temporal path of man.

Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he. (Prov. 29:18)

[135] 5. He must receive the visitation of angels.

Most prophets are instructed by angels. A prophet lives in communication with the spirit world and therefore knows and understands the nature of all angels.

Beginning when Joseph Smith was a teenager, he had dozens of experiences with heavenly beings. Angels came to him with important messages necessary for the restoration of the Gospel. Said the Prophet Joseph:

You know my manner of communication, how that in weakness and simplicity, I declared to you what the Lord had brought forth by the administering of His holy angels to me for this generation. I pray that the Lord may enable you to treasure these things in your mind, for I know that His Spirit will bear testimony to all who seek diligently after knowledge from Him. (TPJS, p. 29)

Oliver Cowdery describes and bears testimony of one of these heavenly visits when the Priesthood was restored:

On a sudden, as from the midst of eternity, the voice of the Redeemer spake peace to us, while the vail was parted and the angel of God came down clothed with glory, and delivered the anxiously looked for message, and the keys of the gospel of repentance! What joy! what wonder! what amazement! While the world was racked and distracted--while millions were groping as the blind for the wall, and while all men were resting upon uncertainty, as a general mass, our eyes beheld--our ears heard. As in the "blaze of days;" yes, more--above the glitter of the May sunbeam, which then shed its brilliancy over the face of nature! Then his voice, though mild, pierced to the center, and his words, "I am thy fellow servant," dispelled every fear. We [136] listened--we gazed--we admired: 'Twas the voice of an angel from glory--'twas a message from the Most High! And as we heard we rejoiced, while his love enkindled upon our souls, and we were wrapt in the vision of the Almighty! Where was room for doubt? * * * I shall not attempt to paint to you the feelings of this heart, nor the majestic beauty and glory which surrounded us on this occasion; but you will believe me when I say, that earth, nor men, with the eloquence of time, cannot begin to clothe language in as interesting and sublime a manner as this holy personage. (Times and Seasons, Vol. 2, No. 1, Nov. 1840, p. 202)

6. He must be assigned to a special work.

Each prophet of God is assigned to a specific work. Some are to testify, warn, and call to repentance; others to gather and organize the people and lead them; some to translate or keep records; and many other labors have also been designated.

Enoch was told to build a righteous city. Noah was commanded to build an ark. Moses was required to go and perform miracles for the children of Israel and the Egyptians. Solomon was instructed to build a temple. And more recently, Joseph Smith was told by the Lord:

And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished. (D. & C. 5:4)

Thus, Joseph labored diligently and exercised this heavenly gift until he finished the translation of the Book of Mormon. He not only translated the Book of Mormon and the writings of Abraham and Moses, but also published [137] a book of revelations, made an inspired revision of the Bible, gathered many thousands of believers, established a university and cities, and was a candidate for United States President. All this he accomplished before he was 40 years old!

Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3)

7. He must teach the doctrine of gathering.

The Prophet Joseph advocated that "We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes. . . ." (Tenth Article of Faith) He also stated:

One of the most important points in the faith of the Church of the Latter-day Saints, through the fullness of the everlasting gospel, is the gathering of Israel .... In speaking of the gathering, we mean to be understood as speaking of it according to scripture, the gathering of the elect of the Lord out of every nation on earth, and bringing them to the place of the Lord of Hosts, when the city of righteousness shall be built, and where the people shall be of one heart and one mind, when the Savior comes; yea, where the people shall walk with God like Enoch, and be free from sin. The word of the Lord is precious; and when we read that the veil spread over all nations will be destroyed, and the pure in heart see God, and reign with Him a thousand years on earth, we want all honest men to have a chance to gather and build up a city of righteousness, where even upon the bells of the horses shall be written "Holiness to the Lord." (TPJS, pp. 92 &
93)

[138] Orson Pratt explained that Joseph Smith taught the doctrine of gathering:

The doctrine of the gathering of the people of God, including Israel, is one so clearly predicted by the inspired writers, that it seems almost superfluous to refer to the numerous passages relating to it. * * * How came Mr. Smith, if an impostor, to get, not only all the other particulars which we have mentioned, perfectly exact, but also to discover that there must be a gathering of the Saints out of Babylon, and that that work must immediately follow the introduction of the gospel by an angel? Why did he not say, my doctrine is true, and if you will embrace it you can be saved, and still remain where you are? It matters not how correct this doctrine might have been in all other points, if he had told his disciples to remain among the corrupt nations, and not gather together--this alone would have exposed the cloven foot, and proved him to be a deceiver. Swedenborg, Wesley, Irving and a numerous host of others, during the last seventeen hundred years, have entirely neglected the gathering, which proves that they were without authority--that a dispensation of the gospel was never committed to them--that the voice from heaven to come out of Babylon had never saluted their ears. Previous to the restoration of the gospel by an angel, God had no people in Babylon, and therefore he could not call them out. An unauthorized uninspired priesthood, preaching a perverted gospel, never could raise up a people of God in Babylon; for they themselves are Babylon, and all their converts or children are begotten after their own likeness with Babylonish inscriptions upon their foreheads. (Orson Pratt's Works, pp. 9 & 10)

[139] 8. He must prophesy and have his prophecies fulfilled.

Before important events transpire, God usually speaks through a prophet to declare His words of warning. Those prophecies are fulfilled conditionally, unless God tells him that they shall definitely come to pass.

So a prophet proves what kind of prophet he really is by whether or not his prophecies come to pass. God said:

But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded to him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously; thou shalt not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:20-22)

There were over 20 major prophecies of Joseph Smith that were fulfilled, and perhaps hundreds of minor ones directed toward certain individuals or pertaining to less important events. Also, some of his prophecies were about the future and are continuing to be fulfilled.

A few of Joseph's prophecies were--

1. The place, conditions and consequences of the great Civil War, prophesied
30 years before it began.

2. Judge Stephen A. Douglas's aspiring to the U.S. Presidency and his fall--and why.

3. The immigration of the Saints to the Rocky Mountains and their increase in numbers and wealth.

[140] Many other prophecies are coming to pass, such as the Russian rise to power over nations and the eventual outcome of their regime.

9. He must be supported by other witnesses.

The work of God must be established by witnesses. In the courts of man, as well as in the courts of heaven, it requires evidence to establish truth. Jesus said, "... in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." (Matt. 18:16)

As mentioned earlier in this chapter, the first major work of this dispensation was the translation of the Book of Mormon from the gold plates. Shortly after the beginning of this work, Joseph was promised by the Lord:

And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you. Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare it unto them. (D. & C. 5:11-12)

Joseph was thrilled to know that he would not be alone to tell his story. Three witnesses saw the plates and an angel, and eight others saw the gold plates. Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, and Hyrum Smith were among those who served as special witnesses to other major manifestations.

10. He must advise others to inquire of God.

A false prophet will not generally tell you to ask God to reveal the truth of his teachings or revelations; but the Prophet Joseph did. He admonished everyone to--

[141]
Search the scriptures--search the revelations which we publish, and ask your Heavenly Father, in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, to manifest the truth unto you, and if you do it with an eye single to His glory nothing doubting, He will answer you by the power of His Holy Spirit. You will then know for yourselves and not for another. You will not then be dependent on man for the knowledge of God; nor will there be any room for speculation. No; for when men receive their instruction from Him that made them, they know how He will save them. (TPJS, pp. 11-12)

Even in the Book of Mormon which Joseph translated, it admonishes:

I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you.... (Moroni 10:4)

11. He must be willing to die for the truth.

The Apostle John prophesied that disciples and prophets would be required to shed their blood to seal their testimony:

I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were should be fulfilled. (Rev. 6:9-11)

[142] Very few men are so convinced of the truth that they would be willing to die for it.

The Prophet Joseph knew that he would be martyred before he was 40 years old, yet he did not compromise or deviate from what the Lord revealed to him. On his final trip to Carthage, Joseph said to the company who were with him:

I am going like a lamb to the slaughter, but I am calm as a summer's morning. I have a conscience void of offense toward God and toward all men. If they take my life, I shall die an innocent man, and my blood shall cry from the ground for vengeance, and it shall be said of me, "He was murdered in cold blood!" (June 24, 1844; D.H.C. 6:554-555)

And three days later this true prophet of God sealed his testimony with his own blood--thus fulfilling another of his own prophecies, that his blood would be shed as a testimony to the truth.(end)

...I said the last revelation was written by President Wilford Woodruff in 1889, a year before the 1890 Manifesto that overturned polygamy as Church doctrine ( a man made fabrication that the leaders wrote to avoid persecution from the federal government although then President John Taylor in 1886 received a "Thus saith the Lord" revelation saying that plural marriage is an everlasting principle and cannot be done away with:http://www.artbulla.com/zion/1886.html) ...

-Before we get into that, let's ask whether that would be reasonable. It would mean that the LDS leaders were cowards, liars, and amoral scoundrels. Are they like that? Did President Woodruff experience such a 180 degree change in character between one year and the next?

-It doesn't fly.

... Elder Parker did most of the talking. He was obviously the file leader. He said how he knew that Gordon B. Hinckley is a true Prophet and that the Spirit is with him. I preached to both of them about how the Church apostatized. I pulled out my laptop and showed them the following quote by Brigham Young:

"Let this Church which is called the Kingdom of God on the earth. We will summons the First Presidency, the Twelve, the High Council, the Bishopric, and all the Elders of Israel, suppose we summons them to appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings that God has given to us. on that very day and hour we should do so, the Priesthood is taken from THIS CHURCH AND KINGDOM and god leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain, the Church must go to destruction we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the Priesthood until that curse be removed."

(Brigham Young Addresses, Ms D, 1234, Box 48, Folder 3, dated Feb. 5,1852,located in the LDS Historical Dept. SLC, UT.)

Elder Parker expressed skepticism that this was a real quote from Brigham Young. I talked about the One Mighty and Strong and the two Messiahs , one to Judah and one to Ephraim. ...

-So you changed the subject, avoided the question. Let's change it back and look at the question right now. I don't expect that the quotation is bogus (it might be) but I don't think Brigham Young said this for the edification of all the world. He said it for the benefit of those present at that time, that small group. If he was going to publish it to the world, he would have. And he'd probably work it over with a red pencil, to make it read clearly. As it stands, can be understood - if you are familiar with President Young's offhand manner of speaking in private occasions. But it contains some subtleties, figures of speech, and certainly some grammar and capitalization errors, which little items certify that it was never prepared for publication by the author.

-But look at the statement itself. What's BY saying? That they could assemble all the men in the Church that have the keys and the authority - all of it, and he the Prophet could tell them they are going to cancel the restrictions on priesthood and Temple marriage for the blacks, but it wouldn't work. For the LORD is the one that laid down those restrictions and He is the only one who can rescind them. Not even with the unanimous consent of all the leaders of the Church could man overrule the decree of the Almighty.

-Now look at the end of the quote. "...until that curse be removed." That implies, in plain English, that the day is going to come when that curse will be removed. It's NOT permanent and unchangeable. The Lord can change it.

"The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race-that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive the blessings in like proportion." (Brigham Young;Journal of Discourse 7:290-291)

"When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity." (Journal of Discourses v2, Discourse By President Brigham Young)

225 Yea, thus saith the Lord, think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am come not to destroy, but to fulfill.
226 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall not pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
227 Yea, thus saith the Lord, have all things been fulfilled?
228 Behold I say unto you, nay.
229 for has the millenium, even the thousand
years of peace, hath it passed, or hath it been fulfilled?
230 I the Lord thy God, who maketh the heavens and the earth and set them in their proper frame and orbits say unto you, O man, nay.
231 Hath the earth received her resurrection and her final reward?
232 I say unto thee, O man, who walketh about in darkness at noon-day, nay.
233 Have all the sons and daughters of Adam received of the blessings which shall be theirs?
234 I say unto thee, O man, nay.
235 And it is not until all these things, even
that which hath been spoken by the mouths of my servants the prophets be fulfilled that the Sons of Cain, the first murderer, shall receive of the blessings of the Priesthood of the Son of God, and then they shall be resurrected to receive of that which hath been appointed unto them from before the foundation of the world.
236 For the blood of righteous Abel did cry up unto me, even in these things.
237 And it is because of unbelief that this great wickedness hath come among you, even at this time.
238 Whosoever shall therefor break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: But whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
239 And how much greater, saith the Lord, is my servant, Art Bulla, than those whom ye sustain as your Presidencies? 240 For the keys, even of the Kingdom of God have been taken, even from them, and given unto him who shall do my will, and believed in my words and my works from before the foundation of the world, saith the Lord God of Israel, even unto my servant have they been given, that he may prove unto you, O man, that I the Lord thy God am the same, yesterday, today, and forever. 241 For, saith the Lord, there is no agency except their own wicked hearts of unbelief, in your prophets at all, but they, even they, are as wood and stone.

Revelations of Jesus Christ Section 2.

So the curse has not been removed yet. The President of the Church is just an individual voted by the people. Prophets are chosen by God.

Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, Pg.133, Brigham Young, April 6, 1853

"Perhaps it may make some of you stumble, were I to ask you a question--Does a man's being a Prophet in this Church prove that he shall be the President of it? I answer, no! A man may be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and it may have nothing to do with his being the President of the Church. Suffice it to say, that Joseph was the President of the Church, as long as he lived: the people chose to have it so. He always filled that responsible station, by the voice of the people. Can you find any revelation appointing him the President of the Church? The keys of the Priesthood were committed to Joseph, to build up the Kingdom of God on the earth, and were not to be taken from him in time or in eternity; but when he was called to preside over the Church, it was by the voice of the people; though he held the keys of the Priesthood, independent of their voice."

Anyways, in order for the curse to be removed, it would take one as great an authority as Noah because he was the one who put it on after the flood.

-Now, when the Lord sees fit to change it, how will He tell us? Will he go tell the reporters at the NY Times and they write it up? It would get garbled that way, and their editors would doubt they really got this from the Lord, and he'd probably not let it get printed. Would the Lord tell the the leaders of the world at some summit conference? Appear to them and announce it? No, their offices are not involved in spiritual matters; their job is to regulate trade and avoid wars and make wise laws. There are no laws about blacks getting the priesthood, on the books of the civil governments of the world. Would the Lord tell the ancient grey heads of Tibet? No, it would be 100 years before they decided it was a real manifestation, or maybe they would decide it wasn't after all. The Lord has chosen one man to transmit such announcements, and that man is the senior Apostle on the earth. It's always been so, ever since Peter, the senior Apostle, got the revelation to extend the blessings of the Gospel to the Gentiles, as recorded in Acts 10.

-... I described how after King Solomon died Israel was divided into two nations, the Northern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom.

Let's skip down a bit.

... So I finally talked about Art Bulla. ... He was baptized into
the Church that year and was an Elder until ordained a 70 Apostle by Rex D. Pinegar in 1974.

There is no office of "70 Apostle". If Pinegar said this, it was an error. Apostle is one office and Seventy is another. In a philosophical sense, Seventies are Apostles, since the word apostle means "one sent forth". Every man who gets the priesthood is "sent forth" and all may be considered apostles in that sense. But it's only a philosophical consideration.

Seventies are Apostles but your evil Church did away with them.

Lectures on True Doctrine

Art Bulla

Lecture No. 7.

The Church (Mormon) has apostatized on this point, saith the Lord, even that of the Seventy and the Apostleship, for the Keys of the Kingdom of God, have I the Lord God of Israel removed from them in their iniquity.

After these things the Lord appointed other Seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come." Luke 10:1 (Luke was a Seventy)

"One of the ordained offices in the Melchizedec Priesthood is that of a Seventy." Mormon Doctrine; Bruce R. McConkie, p. 707.

"The office of the Seventy has been discontinued, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints announced Saturday." Salt Lake Tribune; Oct 5, 1986.

"An announcement that members of the First Council of Seventy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints had been ordained High Priests to give them 'power to set in order all things pertaining to the Church as they visit among the Stakes and Missions..." Conference Report; Sept, Oct, 1961 p. 90.

"Therefor, at the late general conference, five men, High Priests, were called to act as assistants to the Twelve. This action shows the adaptability of the Church to changing, increasing conditions..." John A. Widtsoe; Imp. Era, May, 1941, p. 288.

"All of the assistants to the Twelve Apostles are High Priests. If an elder or a Seventy should be selected to be an assistant to the Apostles, he would be ordained to the office of a High Priest." Imp. Era; Oct, 1956, p. 752.

Inquire why the Lord waited until 1956 to make this innovation. (Obtain opinion).

Non-Apostate Position:

"And they (the Seventy) form a quorum equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or apostles just named." D&C 107:26.

Brigham Young: "There is authority and there are degrees of authority, and there is a difference in degrees, callings and authority of the Priesthood. If there should be one apostle left on the earth, he can regulate and set in order the whole of the church and kingdom of God. If there is one seventy left he could do so. This order is not my getting up, it is the Lord's doings; high priests my mourn over it, the Lord has said it, and I have no right to say it is not so. (Now we have Spencer W. Kimball assuaging the High Priests mourning, contradicting President Young. Of course the devil usurps right by saying it is not so. I detect the devil by his contradicting President Brigham Young, and more importantly by his contradicting the Holy Ghost which testifies of the perfidy of this departure from the Holy Order of God.) Des. News, June 6, 1877, p. 274. (The year he died.)

B. H. Roberts: "...and of course,...(the Seventies are) indirectly equal in authority to the First Presidency, since things equal to a common thing must be equal to each other." CHC; vol 2, p. 369.

Joseph F. Smith: "The Seventies are called to be assistants to the Twelve Apostles; indeed they are Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, subject to the direction of the Twelve, under the direction of the First Presidency of the Church to preach the Gospel." Conf. Report; April, 1907, p.5.

"Such a suggestion mad Joseph righteously angry. Said he, 'O My brethren with as much as I have taught you, and as many revelations as have been given on the subject of the Priesthood, that you should ask such a question! It would be an insult to the Priesthood of the Son of God to ordain a man a High Priest after he had been ordained an Apostle; for the Apostleship holds all the keys of the Priesthood upon the face of the earth, to build up the Kingdom of Heaven, to sanctify the people and prepare them to enter into the presence of God the Father. Now, to say that such a man, holding this Priesthood, should be ordained a High Priest is an insult, and I want to hear no more about it!" Brigham Young; Deseret News, June 6, 1877.

"Brethren I am going to tell you something that will make many of you stumble, Brother Heber Kimball and myself were never ordained High Priests. How marvelous! Thomas B. Marsh (President of the Twelve at that time) came to us and wanted us to be ordained High Priests. Such a suggestion made Joseph righteously angry..." Brigham Young

Have investigator read testimony of One Mighty and Strong on His Revelation concerning Seventy:

This, along with several others of major importance (Celestial Marriage, Negro-Priesthood, Temple Endowment) is one of the main doctrines which the adversary through false administrators has altered vital parts or portions to the salvation of mankind, the plan of salvation as revealed from heaven, and which cannot be changed, saith the Lord, but must remain the same on all the worlds, and through all time and throughout all eternity, for the "same gospel that saved Abraham, must save us"--Joseph Smith: TPJS. After I had received my first two written revelations, I got myself down again upon my knees and inquired of my God concerning what authority I possessed to dictate the affairs of the Kingdom of God upon the earth, by ordination, whereupon I was almost picked up from off my feet and led over to my bookshelf whereupon I was commanded by the Spirit to pick the book, Discourses of Brigham Young from off the shelf, and I opened it right to the page and my eyes fell first upon the paragraph spoken by Brigham Young in which the words sprang out at me: "He stated that the Seventies are ordained apostles, and when they go forth into the ministry they are sent with power to build up the kingdom in all the world and consequently have power to ordain High Priests and also to ordain and organize a High Council. Discourse of Brigham Young; History of Brigham Young Manuscript; Dec 14, 1845. As I read these words my frame was filled with such power and glory that I felt to whoop and shout for the joy and power of it, yea my God, the Holy One of Israel, for he hath revealed unto me the truth and hath he not set me free to build up his kingdom? And I received at that time another revelation that whatsoever I bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and whatsoever I loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven and that the Keys of the Kingdom were then given unto me, and he would recognize no one else as His anointed. I was then commanded to take the two revelations which I had at that point received to my hometeacher, Randy Olsen, who screamed blasphemy, shouting I had the spirit of the devil! the spirit of the devil! Whereupon he ran upon me and pounded me about my face, and broke my nose, and would have killed me in his fear and rage, but for his wife who ran into the room shouting Randy! Randy! My stake then wanted me to apologize to him! Which I wholeheartedly would not do. Whereupon they, in their wisdom convened a High Council Court and summarily excommunicated me. I received a revelation after my incident with Randy that stated that the Prophets had been treated in just this manner in all ages of the world by the wicked of the children of men, stoned, crucified, whereupon I leaped and shouted for joy." Teachings of the One Mighty and Strong No. 12.

Parley P. Pratt: "...in case the quorum of the Twelve should by any means become disorganized, that the Seventies held the jurisdiction and authority of Presidency of the Church in all the world wherever it might be found. That the High Priest's duty would be the same as it is now; they have to attend to their affairs, but the authority of Presidency over the whole Church belonged to the Seventies; and if all the Seventies were killed off except one Seventy, that Seventy would not only possess the right but would be duty bound to stand in their place as the First Presidency of the Church. He said that Joseph Smith the Prophet undertook to establish this idea in the minds of the brethren in Kirtland, but the jealousies that began to arise in the minds of the high Priests prevented him from doing so...He further stated that the difference between the authority of the Seventies and the high Priests was this: The high Priests possessed the High Priesthood, but the Seventies possessed the High Priesthood and the Apostleship, which was the highest power on the earth or in the Church. Parley P. Pratt, Nauvoo Record Book B, p. 226.

"The Seventies are Apostles; and they stand next in authority to the Twelve...If through the providence of God the First Presidency and the Twelve were taken away, then it would be the duty of the Seventies to preach the Gospel, build up the Church , and ordain every officer requisite in order to establish the Church, and ordain High Priests, Bishops, High Counsellors, Patriarchs, and set in order the whole church in all the world. This is according to the revelations given to us...I suppose I ordained hundreds (not just the first quorum as is generally supposed, so all Seventies were and in the case of Art Bulla, are general authorities and are, saith the Lord, recognized by me in their administrations, for they are, saith the Lord, legal administrators of my Kingdom) of Seventies in early days. Brother Joseph Smith has come to us many times, saying, 'Brethren, you are going to ordain Seventies. Do not forget to confer the high priesthood (Melchizedec priesthood) upon them. Ordain each of them to the High Priesthood, and to be one of the Seventy Apostles.' This was my language in the ordination of the Seventies, and that is the way i ordain them now. Brigham Young, Des. News, June 6, 1877, p. 274.

Go to Flannel-board Presentation:

"The Presidency of stakes may proceed from the beginning, and without supervision, may organize, number, and manipulate the quorums of the elders without reference to any other presidency, but he can't proceed so with the seventies quorums, which are not stake quorums, but general church quorums-he may not proceed so with the Seventies quorums, then, without consulting with and directed by the general presidency of the Seventy's Quorums, which is the First Council." B.H. Roberts, Letter to Stake Pres. Henry D. Moyle, Cottonwood Stake, Feb 29, 1928. Note: In 1974, two weeks after i had been ordained to the office of a Seventy, Mr. Kimball, cane out with a directive to have the Seventy subsequently to be ordained by Stake Presidents, contrary to the Holy Order of God!)

"Seventies quorums are not stake quorums. They do not function as stake quorums. There is nothing for them to do as a quorum in a stake. They are not essential in any way to a stake organization. The Seventies quorums exist and have existed throughout their duration in the Church independent of Stake lines...Stakes may be fully organized without having a quorum of Seventies ate all...The 115th quorum of Seventies is not the 115th quorum of any stake...but is the 115th Quorum of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints, and should remain so unconfused with any Stake numbering. B. H. Roberts, Letter to First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, dated Oct. 25, 1926-during this time the Seventies were being stripped of their rightful power in the Church by John Widtsoe, and Heber J. Grant-politics! How dare they tamper with the everlasting gospel? Who did they think themselves to be? The Owner and Master Builder of old ship Zion, can rearrange the masts, perhaps, but not the Captain. But the gospel being the same on all worlds, and through time and throughout eternity cannot be abrogated or changed except by me or by my authority, saith the Lord. For how can I change that which is everlasting? For my covenants, my word and my law are they not everlasting? Yea, they change not, for these are not circumstances which do change, but are principles which are inviolate, saith the Lord, and they who tamper with these things, to steady the Ark of God shall be smitten by the shaft of death, as it is written. Even so. Amen. Revelation Received Feb. 26, 1992; Provo, Utah.

"After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come." Luke 10:1.

Modern "Leaders":

"The First Presidency and Twelve feel that to meet adequately their great responsibilities and to carry on efficiently this service for the Lord, they should have some help. Accordingly it has been decided to appoint assistants to the Twelve, who shall be High Priests, who shall be set apart to act under the direction of the Twelve in the performance of such work as the First Presidency and the Twelve may place upon them...It is proposed that we sustain as assistants to the Twelve, the following named High Priests, who will labor under the supervision and direction of the First Presidency and of the Twelve..." 111th Conference, May, 1941; Imp. Era, p. 269.

"It is the duty of the traveling high council (Twelve) to call upon the Seventy, when they need assistance, to fill the several calls for preaching and administering the gospel, instead of any others." D&C 107:38.

Bear testimony to the truthfulness of the foregoing; close with prayer, and leave a copy of Authority and Message 12.

Should Darwinists Be Straitjacketed ?

In a debate with an atheist on alt.religion.mormon, he said in regards to Mormonism:

"In sanity we are taught that fairy tales aren't reality, and that people who believe that they are aren't sane."

Kenneth Poppe in his book "Reclaiming Science from Darwinism" called evolution a fairy tale for grownups. I doubt YOU are sane at all.

(excerpt from Reclaiming Science from Darwinism; Kenneth Poppe):

These blind alleys dismissed, the book (textbook) usually gives the correct view for the origin of cellular life, using Pasteur's famous "soup in a flask" experiment. Pictures show how boiled broth left in an open container developed the contamination of bacterial life, while boiled broth in a flask sealed from microbes in the air did not--thereby proving that only life gives rise to life. And to be sure that the impressionable young reader understands that superstitious theories cannot account for life, the author is likely to close with the cell theory. This theory has three tenets:

1. The cell is the basic unit of life.
2. All organisms are made of cells.
3. All cells come from other cells.

The heart of the cell theory is the third statement, which says a new cell can only come from a preexisting cell.

"Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way." (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith, p.373)

To add on top of Louis Pasteur proven law that only life comes from life meaning that spontaneous generation is false something the Prophet Joseph Smith knew of even before Pasteur, we know that the first law of thermodynamics says that matter and energy has always been in existence and more cannot be created. The second law of thermodynamics also known as entropy says that all matter and energy has a natural inclination to disorganize itself. That's why people get old and die. That's why things like cars and houses deteriorate unless you take constant care of it but they are always in a ceaseless process of degeneration. So to claim as Darwinists like yourself believe that lifeless atoms by a random process over billions of years formed the first cell which scientists are increasingly becoming appreciative of its amazingly complex molecular structure is an absolute lie because it directly contradicts the 2nd law. That's like saying water flows uphill not downhill. It would be easier for a person to throw up a deck of cards into the air and land as a house of cards. Or a tornado to blow through a junkyard and put together a Cadillac. It's completely absurd.

36 The fundamental premise of evolution is that organisms sprang into being from a random chance collision of molecules in a "primordial sea" or "soup" and that these admittedly simple or­ganisms "evolved"-a term coined by some fat victorian natura­list-into more complex organ­isms by an equally random, chance process.

37 First of all this process in its description breaks one of the fundamental laws of physics, the second law of thermodyna­mics, which states that everything in nature naturally proceeds from a high energy level which is usu­ally less stable, to a low energy state (in other words, water runs downhill, not up).

38 A specific case of this law states that through a process called entropy, systems prefer to be in a disorganized state, rather than one that has a high degree of organization, such as a human body, in other words, things in nature proceed from a state of order through entropy to a state of disorder (I speak of random collisions of molecules).

39 A system which is organized has in­herently more energy, not less than one than one which is dis­organized.

40 Hence the need for an energy input of some source to effect this organization.

41 Random chance cannot ex­plain the existence of such a monumentally complex organi­zation as that of the human body!

42 It takes a great deal of faith of the blind kind to believe in such an absurd proposition.

43 It takes more than I am ca­pable of mustering.

44 A specific example of this ab­surdity, accord­ing to the laws of mathematics which we stated that the theory of evolution must conform to, or else be labeled as false, which it is is this: sup­pose we take the random arisal of not an organ­ism, but just one protein molecule (of which there must be a specific combination of billions upon billions of these different proteins in a specific way to form a single organism, a puzzle which in its complexity staggers the capacity of all the computers in all the world to put together).

45 Now according to a good sourceb, the average length of this one protein molecule of about 100 amino acids in length (there being in the body some proteins much longer than this in length).

46 According to the laws of mathematical prob­ability, what are the chances of this one spe­cific protein which is necessary in the formation of an enzyme which is absolutely necessary for, say, the digestion of starch [just for the sake of argument]?

47 According to mathematical probability which you can read in any elementary textbook on Col­lege Algebra, (Darwin obviously did not have ac­cess to one), the chances of this one protein needed for the digestion of starch randomly aris­ing in this primor­dial soup is one in 20^100!

48 This is one in 20 to the 100th power!

49 This is approximately equal to 10^130.

50 To give you an idea of the immensity of this number, sup­pose we say that we give evolu­tionists 10 billion (10^10) years to make good their claims not for just this earth but for the entire universe which is estimated by to contain 10^22 stars.c Now for each of these stars, let's be gen­erous and give not only one earth, but ten "earths" upon which this one random chance protein molecule is to arise.

51 Therefor, according to the law of the addition of exponents, the total number of earths would be 10^(22+1)= 10^23.

52 Now let us give each "earth" oceans the same size as the ones here which are calculated by vol­ume to contain roughly 10^46 molecules of water.d So the total number of molecules contained in all the oceans on all the "earths" in the universe (estimated) is 10^23 X 10^46, or 10^69 (10 to the 69th power) molecules.

53 Now suppose for the sake of these poor evolu­tionists, we say that each ocean is filled not with water, but amino acids, the buil­ding blocks of protein.

54 This means that there are a total according to our mathe­matical calculations which do not lie, of 1069 amino acids from which this one protein needed for the digestion of starch to "evolve".

55 Now to really give these poor evolutionists a sporting chance (I say 'poor' because they are less than that along with everyone else who is duped into believ­ing their lies, for their eternities are ef­fected), lets say that all of these amino acids, combine, not once a year or every ten years (both of which are absolutely impossible) but every sec­ond of every year in the 10^10 years which is esti­mated by our brave brethren, the scien­tists, to be the age of the uni­verse, to form proteins all of them exactly 100 amino acids in length.

56 Now this would mean that every second, 10^67 proteins ex­actly 100 amino acids long would be formed.

57 Now how many seconds are there in 10 bil­lions of years There are 10^8 seconds approxi­mately, in a year (actually there are a little less than that num­ber).

58 This would mean that over all the space and time imagin­able, there would be 10^10 X 10^8 X 10^67 = 10^85 chances for this one protein to come into being!

59 But we said that the total number of combina­tions of amino acids 100 in length which are pos­sible is 20^100 which is approximately equal to
10^130.

60 This would mean that the chances of this one protein (not an entire being) necessary for the di­gestion of starch to randomly form, as the evolu­tionists claim, is one in 10^130/10^85 which is equal to one in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 which is for all intents and purposes, zero.

Revelations of Jesus Christ section 14

(I thought this would be interesting to note that Joseph Smith and the early Mormons knew of the first law of thermodynamics even before scientists formulated it:)

You ask the learned doctors; why they say the world was made out of nothing; and they will answer, "Doesn't the Bible say He created the world?" And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word baurau which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence, we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos--chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time he had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 350-352; DHC 6:309)

"There is not a hint in all the Bible that God created this or any other world out of nothing. The work of creation was to take the materials that existed from all eternity, that never were [28] created or made out of nothing, to take these self-existent materials and organize them into a world. This is called creation." (Apostle and scientist Orson Pratt, JD 16:315)

President Brigham Young:

If I were a sectarian, I would say, according to their philosophy, as I have heard many of them say hundreds of times, "God created all things out of nothing; in six days he created the world out of nothing." You may be assured the Latter-day Saints do not believe any such thing. They believe God brought forth material out of which he formed this little terra firma upon which we roam. How long had this material been in existence? Forever and forever, in some shape, in some conditions. We need not refer at all to those who were with God, and who assisted him in this work. (JD 18:232)

Difference Between Priesthood and Priestcraft

An atheist in a reply to a post of mine chose the following from one of his atheist grab bag collection of quotes :

"Morality is doing what is right, no matter what you're told. Religion is doing what you're told, no matter what is right." - Jerry Sturdivant

The Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God (known as the Melchizedek Priesthood) is different from religious sectarianism. Many people believe the Founding Fathers were anti Christianity but they believed in Christ not sectarianism (Catholicism and Protestantism).
Watch this flash presentation to learn more about the Priesthood and how it was lost through the Catholic Church.

http://www.artbulla.com/zion/priesthood2.html

5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard din that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 5:5-6



5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Ephesians 4:5-7,11-13

29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

(2 Nephi 26:29)

16 Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor.

(Alma 1:16)


21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

Doctrine and Covenants 84:21

"I am like a huge rough stone rolling down from a high mountain; and the only polishing I get is when some corner gets rubbed off by coming in contact with something else, striking with accelerated force against religious bigotry, priestcraft, lawyer-craft, doctor-craft, lying editors, suborned judges and jurors, and the authority of perjured executives, backed by mobs, blasphemers, licentious and corrupt men and womenall hell knocking off a corner here and a corner there. Thus will I become a smooth and polished shaft in the quiver of the Almighty." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 304.)

"Then came Martin Luther, that great soul, who had the courage to stand against priestcraft and kingcraft, and declare that his conscience was a captive to God's word. That was his declaration when he stood before the Diet at Worms. "There I take my stand; I can do no otherwise. So help me God." That was his answer to hie accusers."

(President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928, Third Day Morning Meeting, p.119)

"God bless you, my brethren and sisters, keep us all from the sins of the world, keep us clean and unspotted. make us more devoted if possible to his word and more loyal and patriotic to the government of which we form a part. For without this government the Church of Christ could not exist, unless God should manifest his power in an unusual manner in our behalf. He has raised up this government and the men who direct its affairs for our protection and benefit, for the protection and benefit of the people of the world in righteousness. But whenever people depart from the way of righteousness, whenever priestcraft shall take the place of Priesthood, God's mercy will be withdrawn. (Distinguish between the words-priestcraft is that system by which men pretend to speak and act in the name of the Lord without authority and without power; Priesthood is the keys and authority to properly act and speak in the name of the Lord, and the power of the Priesthood will be manifest in the works of those who exercise it. And that characterizes the lives of these men, these apostles who are before you, these presiding seventies, and presidents of missions. They exercise the Priesthood of the Lord our God through proper authority, and they exercise it in a proper way.) When priestcraft shall assume that which does not belong to it, then God's mercy and protection will be withdrawn. Go on and read the remainder of this eighty-eighth section of the D&C, (I do not like to read it here) because it tells us what is going to happen to priestcraft, and it is coming with those other manifestations of the power of the Lord which are so prevalent."

(President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, October 1926, First Day Morning Session, p.20-21)

My Response to a Typical Anti-Christ

"Free Lunch" wrote in message news:m9pvg3d4quchcq67uerm4chuanam1tqs08@4ax.com... On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:27:56 -0700, in alt.atheism
"Art Bulla" wrote in <5n8bebfh19ohu1@mid.individual.net>:
-Refuting the false doctrine of atheism is extremely on-topic, you fool.

-You have never refuted any 'false doctrines'. "Is not" does not count as a refutation.

-Do you have evidence that any gods exist. No? Of course not. Until you do, you cannot refute atheism.

No one can prove that God does not exist so it's impossible or disingenuous to the extreme to say that God does not exist. Art is an eyewitness that God exists having seen God face to face close to an hour similar to Paul's vision and others in scriptures.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

(2 Cor 12:2-4)

17 And it came to pass that the disciples whom Jesus had chosen began from that time forth to baptize and to teach as many as did come unto them; and as many as were baptized in the name of Jesus were filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And many of them saw and heard unspeakable things, which are not lawful to be written.

(3 Ne 26:17-18)

There have been thousands and thousands of people with near death out of body experiences like in the following example:

http://www.artbulla.com/zion/ella.html

44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator. (Alma 30:44)

Being an atheist undoubtedly your religion is evolution. Darwinism is a theory that can never be verified by experiment. That's why it's called a theory not a law. It's the LAW of gravity not THEORY of gravity. We can drop a rock and watch it drop and know gravity is true or observe the circular motion of the planets and see that gravity is real. What proof is there of Darwinism ? All your scientists as much effort as they have made have failed to create life. You never saw evolution happen over the supposed billions of years. Where are the transitional fossils? Agenda driven ax grinding atheists enforce their philosophy ramming it down our throats through government enforced misappropriated tax payer money at the point of a gun in our school systems, grade school, high school, and colleges. They use their propaganda in all avenues of mainstream media. For example in movies like the popular comic book based "X-Men" movies where there are mutant human beings born with super powers like the ability to read other people's minds, telekinesis, instant healing, starting fire and ice, etc. to give examples of some the movie character's powers because they are more "highly evolved" beings feeds people's imagination that people can actually evolve. Mutations don't "evolve" new beneficial genetic information unless you consider sickle cell anemia, cerebal palsy, Down Syndrome, cancer, Dwarfism, etc. to be signs of evolution. Real supermen there. Mutations are genetic copying errors, they are destructive to the DNA not productive. A good analogy of mutation is an earthquake. It disrupts and causes chaos to the structure of a building not add order It's amazing to believe someone like you could exist.

You do not believe not because God does not exist but your deeds are dark.

The Aztec White God Quetzacoatl

The Book of Mormon which I have a testimony of written by Prophets by the Spirit of prophesy and revelation in the same way the Bible was written teaches that Jews sailed to the Americas around 600 BC and afterwards divided into two nations, the Nephites and Lamanites. The greatest moment in their combined history was when Jesus after his resurrection visited them after visting His Apostles in Judah. Around 400 AD, the Lamanites after years of wars finally destroyed the Nephites and are the ancestors of the American Indians. The following passage describes a deity believed by the Aztecs who bears an uncanny resemblance with Jesus.

"This mysterious personage, Quetzacoatl, was said to have been tall in stature, with a white skin, long dark hair and a flowing beard. The Mexicans looked confidently forward to the return of this person, this kind deity, and it was that tradition, deeply imbedded in their hearts, that made it possible for the Spanish under Cortez to succeed in their remarkable but disgraceful conquest of that country, for the Mexicans thought they recognized in Cortez and his followers the descendants of Quetzalcoatl. "We know by our books," said the Emperor Montezuma in the first interview he held with Cortez, "that myself and those who inhabit this country are not natives, but strangers who came from a great distance. We know, also, that the chief (the Lord God) who led our ancestors hither returned, for a certain time, to his primitive country, and thence came back to seek those who were here established, who after awhile returned again, alone. We also believed that his descendants would one day come to take possession of this country. Since you arrive from that region where the Sun rises, I cannot doubt but that the king who sends you is our natural master."

(The Contributor, Volume 9)

My Conversation with Two Mormon Elders

In Escondido, CA on Oct. 1st, Monday, around 11:40 am, I was riding my bike on my way to the post office when I saw two Mormon elders walking to a neighborhood. They were Elders Parker and Orr. We exchanged greetings and I started out by saying that I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and that I knew Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God. They seemed very pleased. I continued by saying that however I am not part of the Church and that I believed the current Church had departed from the teachings set out by the original Church. I explained that the Church ceased to receive "Thus saith the Lord" revelations. I said the last revelation was written by President Wilford Woodruff in 1889, a year before the 1890 Manifesto that overturned polygamy as Church doctrine ( a man made fabrication that the leaders wrote to avoid persecution from the federal government although then President John Taylor in 1886 received a "Thus saith the Lord" revelation saying that plural marriage is an everlasting principle and cannot be done away with: http://www.artbulla.com/zion/1886.html) Elder Parker did most of the talking. He was obviously the file leader. He said how he knew that Gordon B. Hinckley is a true Prophet and that the Spirit is with him. I preached to both of them about how the Church apostatized. I pulled out my laptop and showed them the following quote by Brigham Young:

"Let this Church which is called the Kingdom of God on the earth. We will summons the First Presidency, the Twelve, the High Council, the Bishopric, and all the Elders of Israel, suppose we summons them to appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings that God has given to us. on that very day and hour we should do so, the Priesthood is taken from THIS CHURCH AND KINGDOM and god leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain, the Church must go to destruction we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the Priesthood until that curse be removed."

(Brigham Young Addresses, Ms D, 1234, Box 48, Folder 3, dated Feb. 5, 1852, located in the LDS Historical Dept. SLC, UT.)

Elder Parker expressed skepticism that this was a real quote from Brigham Young. I talked about the One Mighty and Strong and the two Messiahs , one to Judah and one to Ephraim. I described how after King Solomon died Israel was divided into two nations, the Northern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom. The tribes Judah, Benjamin, and Levi made up the Southern and the Northern was comprised of Ephraim and the rest of the 8 tribes. I said Ephraim was attacked and taken captive by Assyria around 750 BC and scattered through Europe completely losing its national heritage. I said Judah was invaded and taken away into captivity by Babylon around 600 BC but after 70 years a few thousand returned and restored their nation. Elder Parker agreed with this fact of history. I said Jesus was the Only Begotten and was Messiah to the Jews. He asked me if I knew what Messiah means. I said it means "Lord's Anointed" which he agreed with me. I said Ephraim has its own Messiah.

1 NOW the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he [was] the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him [came] the chief ruler; but the birthright [was] Joseph's (:)
(1 Chronicle 5:1-2)

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

(Ezek 37:19)


34 Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows.
35 And they also of the tribe of Judah, after their pain, shall be sanctified in holiness before the Lord, to dwell in his presence day and night, forever and ever.

(D&C 133:34-35)

"EPHRAIM PRESIDES OVER ALL ISRAEL. I take it we, the members of the Church, most of us of the tribe of Ephraim, are of the remnant of Jacob. We know it to be the fact that the Lord called upon the descendants of Ephraim to commence his work in the earth in these last days. We know further that he has said that he set Ephraim, according to the promises of his birthright, at the head, Ephraim receives the "richer blessings," these blessings being those of presidency or direction. The keys are with Ephraim. It is Ephraim who is to be endowed with power to bless and give to the other tribes, including the Lamanites, their blessings. All the other tribes of Jacob, including the Lamanites, are to be crowned with glory in Zion by the hands of Ephraim. "
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie, 2:, p.250)

He asked me throughout our conversation if the Church no longer holds the keys who does. So I finally talked about Art Bulla. I said in 1969 he was 21 years old in North Carolina, walking to the bus depot to join the army when he had a vision where he saw and spoke to God face to face for close to an hour. I compared his vision to Paul's:

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
(2 Cor 12:2-4)

I told them a couple years later in 1971 he was stationed in Fort Sam, Houston when he was reading the first chapter of the Book of Mormon when he felt the Spirit powerfully. He was baptized into the Church that year and was an Elder until ordained a 70 Apostle by Rex D. Pinegar in 1974. I said that Brigham Young stated if all the 12 and the Seventies had died except one Seventy he had the keys to build up the entire Kingdom of God. After the apostasy happened after blacks were given the Priesthood in 1978, the keys to the Priesthood was taken from the Church and given to the hands of Art Bulla. The President of the Church is a separate office from the Lord's Anointed.

Excerpt from a letter Art written to Ogden Kraut:

"Now suppose the entire First Quorum had apostacized or were killed by a mob, along with the Twelve and First Presidency, which many claim is impossible, because the Lord would never allow it, then the Lord could by Revelation to an Apostle, proceed to direct and reorganize the Kingdom of God upon the earth, by direct Revelation, with all the keys of the Priesthood encompassed, as Brigham learned by experience and by precept from the mouth of Joseph Smith himself, saith the Lord, but which knowledge was lost in succeeding generations through a gradual apostasy, within the Apostleship which is held and recognized of the Lord by that one faithful Apostle, or Seventy. The Lord could and has directed him and given him the sealing power, which is already, by ordination, encompassed within the Apostleship, the Lord merely by revelation agreeing that whatsoever he would bind on earth would be bound in heaven, etc. He would need no further ordination, as did not Brigham, by the laying on of the hands, except in the matter of reorganizing the other presiding quorums, which I am at present doing in the name of the Lord God of Brigham Young. The other quorums being the First Quorum of Seventy, the Twelve and the First Presidency, which are all absolutely necessary, saith the Lord, for the perfection of the Saints, and the work of the ministry, and shall never in time or in eternity be done away, for this Order continueth in the Resurrrection from the dead, saith the Lord, and shall not be abrogated among the wicked of the Saints of the Most High, by their unrighteous decrees which are not of me, saith the Lord, but must be maintained exactly as set up by my servant Joseph in all holiness before me, saith the Lord.

"It is now that I, Art Bulla declare unto the world that such an apostasy has indeed occurred among those whose duty it was to preserve it as handed down to them from under the hands of Peter, James and John, who are Gods, namely because of their great wickedness, the details of which I have received through direct revelation, the which I invite all to examine freely as to its authenticity. Consequently, the Lord has commanded and directed me to begin the work preparatory to the complete restoration of all of Israel among the nations of the earth, among those who will receive of his word and authoritative direction. The rest, saith the Lord, shall be burned at my coming in the clouds of heaven. There are others who can with power testify to the veracity and authority of this work, as witnesses, namely George Robert Allen and others who will remain unnamed at this time. All who ernestly pray concerning these things will receive it also, and I care not if the whole world perish, if they harden their hearts against it, for can they do anything more unto me, that they did unto the Lord's Only Begotten Son?"

Throughout our conversation, Elder Parker had an arrogant attitude about him although I could tell he and Elder Orr were very interested in what I had to say. Two other Elders stopped by and they had to leave so that concluded our meeting. Before we parted company I wrote down the website address on a piece of paper and gave it to them. He gave me a piece of paper with information about the Conference meeting that weekend.

Dear Mr. Jones,

I've been reading your recent correspondence with Art and I have some issues to take up with you on certain points you made. The first issue is "why you bother":

Whenever the Gospel is preached in towns, cities, country places, or in any community who are in darkness, it never fails to bring light; it manifests their ignorance; it distracts them, and annoys their peace. They say, "I supposed I was wise, happy, comfortable, and well enough off; but here comes something that informs me I am mistaken, that this and the other thing are wrong. It reflects light upon my understanding, and teaches me that my acts, while I live upon the earth, should tend to the glory of God and the peace of mankind. This naturally seems contrary to my feelings, disposition, passions, and traditions, and to every thing about me, except the reflection of truth upon my mind, which enlightens my understanding, and teaches me to glorify God, and do good to my fellow creatures." (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 1:, p.236)

11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church. (D&C 42:11)

The above only applies when the Church holds the Priesthood. The Priesthood is not limited to the Church but circumscribes it.

''An assumption frequently made is that the authors of the prophetic books of the Old Testament were the constituted authorities of the Church in their eras. This, however, was not always the case. Some of them were even considered rebels by the religious leaders of Israel in their days. Jeremiah was one such prophet who stood outside of the Church. The established Church, through its Priests, even attempted to put Jeremiah to death. Micah, Amos, Hosea, and Zephaniah were also prophets who were critical of corruption within the Church.

"These Old Testament prophets did not speak as representing the Church, but as representing the Lord. Though the prophets may have held the higher Priesthood authority, there is no Biblical indication that the general Church membership of that time was aware of it." Thus Saith the Lord; Duane S. Crowther, p. 148.

So the Priesthood exists outside of the Church. The Gospel is made up of absolute truths and the Church can depart from the Lord having its free agency being a free voting body and when they become corrupt as it did in the Church in ancient Israel or it did when the LDS gave blacks the Priesthood, the Priesthood can depart. The Catholic Church once held the Priesthood but you would agree the Lord removed the keys of the Priesthood from them, correct? An interesting fact to note is that the Priesthood was restored back in May 1829 and the Church in April 1830 so this shows that the Priesthood exists without the Church.

"During the remarks made at the opening of this conference, by President Smith. I was led to reflect, and I felt very keenly that he was actuated by the spirit of boldness and courage that came from his calling, reinforced by our Father. He did not ask what would increase his good favor among this people. He evidently had but one thought, and that thought was akin to that which inspired the Prophet Brigham when the question came up as to who was to lead the Church, and he remarked "I do not care who leads this Church, even though it were Ann Lee, but one thing I must know, and that is what God says about it." And President Smith has but one consideration. "What is the will of the Lord concerning this people," and He has given it to us-the will of the Lord. There is a passage of scripture in one of the revelations, wherein the Lord says:" (Elder George H. Brimhall., Conference Report, October 1913, Second Overflow Meeting., p.68)

Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, Pg.133, Brigham Young, April 6, 1853

"Perhaps it may make some of you stumble, were I to ask you a question--Does a man's being a Prophet in this Church prove that he shall be the President of it? I answer, no! A man may be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and it may have nothing to do with his being the President of the Church. Suffice it to say, that Joseph was the President of the Church, as long as he lived: the people chose to have it so. He always filled that responsible station, by the voice of the people. Can you find any revelation appointing him the President of the Church? The keys of the Priesthood were committed to Joseph, to build up the Kingdom of God on the earth, and were not to be taken from him in time or in eternity; but when he was called to preside over the Church, it was by the voice of the people; though he held the keys of the Priesthood, independent of their voice."

The Lord's Anointed is not the President of the Church. Did you know that Joseph Smith wanted Hyrum to be the President of the Church but because the Saints refused, Joseph was elected the President.

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

(Ezek 14:9)

"He (the Lord through Ezekiel) said if the Church ever departed from the Lord, they must fall. That they were dependent upon the prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves (faith, judgment and mercy)..." TPJS p. 238.

"Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose that doctrine (polygamy) and the whole of them would be damned." Heber C. Kimball, JD 5:203.

."Let this Church which is called the Kingdom of God on the earth. We will summons the First Presidency, the Twelve, the High Council, the Bishopric,and all the Elders of Israel, suppose we summons them to appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings that God has given to us. on that very day and hour we should do so, the Priesthood is taken from THIS CHURCH AND KINGDOM and god leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain, the Church must go to destruction we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the Priesthood until that curse be removed."

Brigham Young Addresses, Ms D, 1234, Box 48, Folder 3, dated Feb. 5, 1852, located in the LDS Historical Dept. SLC, UT.

"The next day the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe. I went and got my map for him. "Now," he said, "I will show you the travels of this people." ...You will live to see men arise in power in the Church who will seek to put down your friends and the friends of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Many will be hoisted because of their money and the worldly learning which they seem to be in possession of; and many who are the true followers of our Lord and Savior will be cast down because of their poverty."

Mosiah Hancock Journal

Art Bulla was ordained an Apostle by the proper authority called and ordained as was Moses or Aaron by the proper authority. I know that Art is the Lord's Anointed having received a witness by the Spirit. I know that you are deceived by the strong delusion to be poured by those who worship the son of perdition that sitteth in the temple of God and is worshipped as God.

Sincerely,

Aaron Kim

A Letter to a Protestant Minister

Dear Mr. Alamo,

I read your testimony of how you were converted and I have a bone to pick with you which is very important for your salvation as well as my own. And I will promise you if I am wrong I will repent and I think if you are wrong you should repent. You say the prayer below is all that is necessary for a person's salvation and there is the problem:

"My Lord and my God, have mercy upon my soul, a sinner. 1 I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. 2 I believe that He died on the cross and shed His precious blood for the forgiveness of all my sins. 3 I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit 4 and that He sits on the right hand of God at this moment, hearing my confession of sin and this prayer. 5 I open up the door of my heart and I invite You into my heart, Lord Jesus. 6 Wash all of my filthy sins away in the precious blood that You shed in my place on the cross at Calvary. 7 You will not turn me away, Lord Jesus, You will forgive my sins and save my soul. I know because Your Word, the Bible says so. 8 Your Word says that You will turn no one away, and that includes me. 9 Therefore, I know that You have heard me, and I know that You have answered me, and I know that I am saved. 10 And I thank You, Lord Jesus, for saving my soul, and I will show my thankfulness by doing as You command and sin no more. "

However in order to be saved it takes more than just verbal repentance. Your doctrine violates the law of God as shown in the scriptures below.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

(Mark 16:16)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(Acts 2:38)

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

(Acts 8:18)

14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

(1 Tim 4:14)

So on top of repenting you also have to be baptized in order to be saved. And you have to have hands laid on your head for the gifts of the Holy Ghost "of the presbytery". Even devils confess with their mouths, acknowledging that God exists. I know you have a hundred churches, but what doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his own soul? Where is you authority? Where is your legal administrator? Paul was directed by Jesus himself to a legal administrator named Ananias even though he spoke directly with the Lord in vision. Again where is your Ananias? You have no authority. I know if you don't respond to this notice it is because you love darkness rather than light because your deeds are evil as outlined above. Surely, perverting the way of the Lord is evil, is it not?

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

(Isa 8:20)

Sincerely,

Aaron Kim

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www.artbulla.com

Listen to Zion Redemption Radio hosted by Art Bulla and Aaron Kim on Sunday from 3 to 4 (pst). Just go to http://www.blogtalkradio.com/hostpage.aspx?host_id=3513 All are invited to call in live, email at art@artbulla.com, or by MSM artbulla@hotmail.com. This show is dedicated to the redemption of Zion, revelations of Jesus Christ, authority, Priesthood, Kingdom of God, doctrine discussed pertaining to the salvation of Ephraim and Manasseh. During non broadcast hours you can also listen to archived shows.

My Testimony of a Living Prophet: http://www.artbulla.com/zion/Aaron's%20Page.html

26 Even so, come unto me and learn of my ways, and I will give unto you, even as many as shall come, that peace which surpasseth understanding, and if ye shall inquire of me concerning these things, will I the Lord manifest by the influence and power of the Holy Ghost that these things are verily true and are of me, saith the Lord.

Revelations of Jesus Christ sec. 6:26

Aaron Kim